Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[maomao]

Unacceptable to whom? You, obviously, anyone else? The person who posted it actually changed the image to the one I've put on here from one that showed scenes of devastation. I suspect he did so because he didn't want to pull any punches, which given what is happening right now in Norther Gaza is pretty understandable. I'll put is behind a spoiler but I'm not taking it down.

E2a I see someone's done it for me.

You'd think it was the event and not the photo of it that was unacceptable.

 

[frogwoman]

Gore pics should be put behind spoilers imo, we don't know who could be reading this and could have PTSD triggered etc

 

[TopCat]

You'd think it was the event and not the photo of it that was unacceptable.

Sasaferrato used to do with with pics of blown up Brit soldiers. It’s not on the whole needed.

 

[maomao]

Well it's behind a spoiler now.

 

[teqniq]

Really bleak analysis of what is happening in Jabaliya from Ori Goldberg:

Thread by @ori_goldberg on Thread Reader App

@ori_goldberg: 1/ The slaughter of Jabaliya is not an implementation of the "Eiland plan". The slaughter of Jabaliya is not the beginning of a land grab. The slaughter of Jabaliya is, in Israeli eyes, just another...…

threadreaderapp.com

 

[mojo pixy]

British and French control in the mandates was based on manipulating ethnoreligious tensions ensuring that political and military power was in the hands of minority rather than majority conmunities. The Sunni in Shia majority Iraq, the Alawi in Sunni majority Syria, the Jews in Palestine.

Though the Jews in Palestine didn't have actual power, till 1948. The British with the Mandate not only did all they could to stop the jews in Palestine gaining power, but also appointed a mufti who was known to be antagonistic to zionism and a proponent of arab nationalism, specifically to mitigate what power the jews were gaining. Divide and rule, as always.

And again, even after the end of ww2 when that became an untenable position as a flood of stateless refugees developed, still Britain turned refugees back and interned them (in errr concentration camps ) rather than let them arrive in Palestine.

 

[tim]

.

Whilst we are on history went back to look for any articles by Makdisi.

Whose book on later Ottoman empire and co existence I've mentioned previously. ( Yet to read it)

Makdisi is from Lebanon and seen him more recently on TV.

Found this,

Ottoman cosmopolitanism and the myth of the sectarian Middle East | Aeon Essays

European colonisation put an abrupt end to political experiments towards a more equal, diverse and ecumenical Arab world

aeon.co

Not to long essay on his take on late Ottoman empire.

Far from being a crumbling backward place the late empire was like a lot of the world attempting to modernise.

He puts this in context of world events ( civil war in USA, colonialism of European empires.

His argument basically is that the late empire had modernising tolerant tendency and intolerant nationalistic ones.

The Balkans fell apart.

The middle east part of empire was working towards a new modernised Ottoman identity that included Muslims, Christians and Jews. With secular aspect to it.

He sees the breakup of Ottoman empire the interference by British / French empires and Zionism ( a European movement) a disaster for the region. Which laid the seeds for the conflict now in middle east.

In the Arab part as King / Crane saw when the travelled around the area the ecumenical part of ottoman empire had survived just. Unlike Ataturk new Turkey he was carving out.

There were warnings. The King Crane ( named after the two Americans who did it)commission set up after WW1 to look at what the people of middle east wanted.

It's findings ignored.

So, your argument is that Ottoman Imperialism good Imperialism; and it's unfortunate that the primitive souls under the velvet Ottoman heel couldn't see that they were living in the best of all possible.

Are there any other empires that you think get a bad press?

 

[Gramsci]

.

So, your argument is that Ottoman Imperialism good Imperialism; and it's unfortunate that the primitive souls under the velvet Ottoman heel couldn't see that they were living in the best of all possible.

Are there any other empires that you think get a bad press?

No it's clearly not what I'm saying. If you actually read my post.

 

[Gramsci]

Though the Jews in Palestine didn't have actual power, till 1948. The British with the Mandate not only did all they could to stop the jews in Palestine gaining power, but also appointed a mufti who was known to be antagonistic to zionism and a proponent of arab nationalism, specifically to mitigate what power the jews were gaining. Divide and rule, as always.

And again, even after the end of ww2 when that became an untenable position as a flood of stateless refugees developed, still Britain turned refugees back and interned them (in errr concentration camps ) rather than let them arrive in Palestine.

So what was the Balfour declaration about?

Why did British help to get it actually written into the Mandate?

Highlighted bit is complete mis reading of history. Whether one supports Zionism or not.

 

[Gramsci]

Meanwhile in 2024 self professed Zionists in Israel are attempting to ethnically cleanse north Gaza.

 

[tim]

Unacceptable to whom? You, obviously, anyone else? The person who posted it actually changed the image to the one I've put on here from one that showed scenes of devastation. I suspect he did so because he didn't want to pull any punches, which given what is happening right now in Northern Gaza is pretty understandable. I'll put is behind a spoiler but I'm not taking it down.

E2a I see someone's done it for me.

Not acceptable because it shows disrespect for the victims of a war crime. There's never any excuse for voyeuristic crime porn.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Sasaferrato used to do with with pics of blown up Brit soldiers. It’s not on the whole needed.

I sent a few IRA supporters a picture of what their friends actions caused. They were brave enough when talking about the glorious IRA, but being shown what the utter scum did, they wet their panties.

 

[Gramsci]

I chose my words carefully. The Mufti of Jerusalem was hostile to zionism, sure, and also hostile to jews.

No you didn't say that originally.

So no you didn't choose your words carefully in context of this thread.

 

[teqniq]

Not acceptable because it shows disrespect for the victims of a war crime. There's never any excuse for voyeuristic crime porn.

Only if you view it as voyeuristic crime porn. I do not. If fact it made me feel angry and uncomfortable.

 

[PTK]

I sent a few IRA supporters a picture of what their friends actions caused. They were brave enough when talking about the glorious IRA, but being shown what the utter scum did, they wet their panties.

Were the IRA morally worse than the members of the Royal Air Force who bombed Iraq?

 

[Gramsci]

.

So, your argument is that Ottoman Imperialism good Imperialism; and it's unfortunate that the primitive souls under the velvet Ottoman heel couldn't see that they were living in the best of all possible.

Are there any other empires that you think get a bad press?

Such as in my post I said this

His argument basically is that the late empire had modernising tolerant tendency and intolerant nationalistic ones.

I'm talking about the late Ottoman empire here. It wasn't expanding. It had other empires trying to get bits of it.

What I got from Makdisi article is that he is countering a view that people there were primitive or backward.

I mean some of the stuff people say to me outside urban is of the they are all tribal out there/ Muslims are backward etc. All they do is kill each other and there's nothing you can do about it.

One of the points of his article and what I've heard him say in talk is to resurrect this lost history.

 

[tim]

Such as in my post I said this

His argument basically is that the late empire had modernising tolerant tendency and intolerant nationalistic ones.

I'm talking about the late Ottoman empire here. It wasn't expanding. It had other empires trying to get bits of it.

What I got from Makdisi article is that he is countering a view that people there were primitive or backward.

The same revisionist nonsense that gets said about the British Empire.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Were the IRA morally worse than the members of the Royal Air Force who bombed Iraq?

Absolutely. Bombs placed to go off without warning.

There is no comparison between the actions of the IRA and the invasion of Iraq. Neither were morally defensible, but Iraq was a direct result of lies by Blair and the utterly odious Campbell.

A better parallel in moral terms would be the the actions of the IRA in comparison to the acts of the Stern Gang (who came close to killing my father in the King David Hotel) where the acts of both could not be justified.

 

[Gramsci]

The same revisionist nonsense that gets said about the British Empire.

Your really good with the whataboutery.

Give you top marks in that.

 

[PTK]

Absolutely. Bombs placed to go off without warning.

There is no comparison between the actions of the IRA and the invasion of Iraq. Neither were morally defensible, but Iraq was a direct result of lies by Blair and the utterly odious Campbell.

A better parallel in moral terms would be the the actions of the IRA in comparison to the acts of the Stern Gang (who came close to killing my father in the King David Hotel) where the acts of both could not be justified.

Well, the RAF did not actually warn their victims. The IRA did warn when they bombed civilian targets, such as shops and offices. The RAF never gave warnings.

 

[PTK]

.

So, your argument is that Ottoman Imperialism good Imperialism; and it's unfortunate that the primitive souls under the velvet Ottoman heel couldn't see that they were living in the best of all possible.

Are there any other empires that you think get a bad press?

Not all empires are produced by the same historical processes. Pre-capitalist land-based empires such as the Ottoman Empire or the Austro-Hungarian Empire are different from the overseas empires of European capitalist states.

 

[tim]

Your really good with the whataboutery.

Give you top marks in that.

An accusation you often make when you are losing an argument.

You'll start claiming I'm hasbara again before the afternoon's out.

 

[Gramsci]

The same revisionist nonsense that gets said about the British Empire.

How about trying to see where other people are coming from?

Makdisi is Lebanese.

Someone of his generation living through a region with seemingly endless wars and sectarianism looking back to an earlier time ( not that distant) where a more tolerant ecumenical society was being discussed and moves to making it work were happening is imo a perfectly ethical thing to do.

What he's saying I think is that it wasn't inevitable it turned out like the way it has. It's possible to build a different future. However remote that seems now.

 

[teqniq]

And there we have it, annexation:

Israeli Defense Officials: Gov't Pushing Aside Hostage Deal, Eyeing Gaza Annexation

 

[Gramsci]

Really bleak analysis of what is happening in Jabaliya from Ori Goldberg:

Thread by @ori_goldberg on Thread Reader App

@ori_goldberg: 1/ The slaughter of Jabaliya is not an implementation of the "Eiland plan". The slaughter of Jabaliya is not the beginning of a land grab. The slaughter of Jabaliya is, in Israeli eyes, just another...…

threadreaderapp.com

It's positively dystopian. Not sure what to make of it. He is an Israeli and comes across as despairing not just about the government but the whole country,

This at end of thread

 

[redsquirrel]

Gore pics should be put behind spoilers imo, we don't know who could be reading this and could have PTSD triggered etc

This.
I've no problem with such images being shared sensibly - there is a time and place for such, and I do think it is justified here - but people browse U75 at work, their kids might be viewing etc, as well as it possibly be triggering

 

[Gramsci]

Did Israeli intelligence not have any warning this was going to happen, because normally intelligence and agencies have tip off?

The last example of Israel not heeding signs of attack is the Yom Kippur war in 1973.

This took the Egyptian army months of planning and training.

Israelis dismissed signs of possible attack and were caught by surprise. Egyptian forces had to cross Suez canal to attack. It took a lot of planning. Somehow Egyptians managed to do all this and Israel didn't read the signs.

I think it's not just about warning it's about wanting to read situation correctly.

Some of it is that back in 73 Israel didn't think Egypt was capable of this. They had beaten Arab armies in 67 and thought Arabs were basically rubbish at fighting.

I think same with Hamas. The Israeli governments thought that the normalisation process was going fine and Palestinians were being forgotten about.

The occasional cutting of the grass as it's put of Gaza would be necessary. But the situation was containable.

West Bank was gradually being defacto annexed.

So it was serious blunder. Under estimating of the enemy. Hubris

But looking at whole history of conflict and Palestinians whilst losing are never quite beaten.

 

[Gramsci]

Really bleak analysis of what is happening in Jabaliya from Ori Goldberg:

Thread by @ori_goldberg on Thread Reader App

@ori_goldberg: 1/ The slaughter of Jabaliya is not an implementation of the "Eiland plan". The slaughter of Jabaliya is not the beginning of a land grab. The slaughter of Jabaliya is, in Israeli eyes, just another...…

threadreaderapp.com

And this



He's saying in this thread that Israel society as a whole is fighting itself. With Palestinians in Gaza being where it's fought.

There is no plan.

Reminds me watching a commentator on the Makdisi street YouTube.

On a basic politics level both Hezbollah and Iran are behaving as rational actors. Even if one does not support their politics. It's Israel that isn't behaving like a rational actor one might be able to predict what it does next.

 

[tim]

.

The last example of Israel not heading signs of attack is the Yom Kippur war in 1973.

This took the Egyptian army months of planning and training.

Israelis dismissed signs of possible attack and were caught by surprise. Egyptian forces had to cross Suez canal to attack. It took a lot of planning. Somehow Egyptians managed to do all this and Israel didn't read the signs.

I think it's not just about warning it's about wanting to read situation correctly.

Some of it is that back in 73 Israel didn't think Egypt was capable of this. They had beaten Arab armies in 67 and thought Arabs were basically rubbish at fighting.

I think same with Hamas. The Israeli governments thought that the normalisation process was going fine and Palestinians were being forgotten about.

The occasional cutting of the grass as it's put of Gaza would be necessary. But the situation was containable.

West Bank was gradually being defacto annexed.

So it was serious blunder. Under estimating of the enemy. Hubris

But looking at whole history of conflict and Palestinians whilst losing are never quite beaten.

On a basic politics level both Hezbollah and Iran are behaving as rational actors. Even if one does not support their politics. It's Israel that isn't behaving like a rational actor one might be able to predict what it does next.

The war of 1973 led to the Egyptians regaining control of Sinai. What did the Pogrom of 7 October last year acheive? Gaza has been devestated; 42,000 Palestinians are dead, Southern Lebanon faces catastrophe, the Hamas leadership aren't safe if thety leave Qatar - they even get blown up when in VIP accommodation in Tehran. Where was the rationality in the attack?

 

[Pickman's model]

.




The war of 1973 led to the Egyptians regaining control of Sinai. What did the Pogrom of 7 October last year acheive? Gaza has been devestated; 42,000 Palestinians are dead, Southern Lebanon faces catastrophe, the Hamas leadership aren't safe if thety leave Qatar - they even get blown up when in VIP accommodation in Tehran. Where was the rationality in the attack?

It's always now now now with you and that's not the way things work