mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Yes, British duplicity is endless. Nothing looks like changing there.
Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
- Thread starter PR1Berske
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Yes, British duplicity is endless. Nothing looks like changing there.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Yes, but actually mainly from Jewish organizations, especially in the USA**. Followed by support also from Christian organizations (but for very different and IMO far more sinister reasons). And finally by international support from just about every country that had citizens who have migrated israelwards, which is a lot of states.
But it pretty much did arise mainly through the work of jewish zionists. Including some extremely wealthy ones like rothschild and montefiore who paid for a lot of pre-1948 infrastructure. And a lot of idealistic kibbutzniks and others who cleared swamps and planted trees. "Support from outside the middle east" sounds shadowy and suspicious, but it's clear much support would come from outside the middle east, because the vast majority of jews interested in this potential jewish state at that time (let's say the early 20th century pre-ww2) lived outside the middle east.
** instead of adding another post I'll add a brief mention of eg. the Joint Development Committee, one of the main zionist support organizations in the US, founded IIRC in 1914. It's orgs like that, yes from outside the middle east, that originally did and still do support jewish development in mandate palestine / the state of israel on a practical and financial level.
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PTK
Paul Kegan
I am a "dick" for pointing out that the State of Israel was not the only state on which the UN had called to withdraw from occupied territory? Why am I a "dick" for pointing that out?
You seem to be suggesting that it is wrong for the United Nations to call for withdrawal from occupied territory. Why do you think it is right for one state to conquer the territory of the other?
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
I think turkey makes a decent comparison with Israel, in some ways; invading anatolia (yes 700 years ago, but still there) occupying kurdish and armenian lands, killing and imprisoning (with terrible conditions) kurdish citizens whether protesters or politicians or just bystanders - as well as more recently occupying N.Cyprus and refusing to leave. Also still officially denying any such thing as "Armenian genocide".
But there's no BDS movement, no countless UN resolutions, no international "anti-türkiyism" demanding the turkish state hand back lands it's occupying.
But there's no BDS movement, no countless UN resolutions, no international "anti-türkiyism" demanding the turkish state hand back lands it's occupying.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
it's like manzikert never happened.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
By outside help I mean at moment USA now.
Both diplomatically and in arms supplies.
Not sure why you say that's shadowy and suspicious. It's pretty obvious and out in open that Israel gets a lot of support where it matters.
In past UK and France.
UK off and on.
Support from States governments.
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PTK
Paul Kegan
Is there much evidence of mass repression of Armenians and Kurds in Turkey before the 20th century?
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
No, fair enough, I'm aware turks were making incursions into byzantium for a very long time. My main point though was that even all this time later, with genocides and ethnic cleansing under its belt and ongoing even now, it gets very little condemnation or demands to release land, compared to it's close neighbour which has only been at work for <100 years. The PKK is treated pretty much like Hamas and yet Turkey even gets to be in NATO.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
I'm not talking about post-1948, I'm talking about who paid for and supported the zionist project before that. It was almost exclusively jews.
European, Russian, and 'official' US support came only after ww2, as a kind of guilt-mitigation for having let the shoah happen
(And of course the UK didn't even help then, at first, interning thousands of refugees in Cyprus and sending them back to France etc)
PTK
Paul Kegan
Yes, but your analogy therefore breaks down. If the original settlers did not try to create a state based on one ethnic group, then there is no comparison. The idea of the "nation state" is something that began to gain popular support in the world in the 19th century.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
You know nato aren't good guys, right?
And stuff that happened 100 years ago let alone 1000 is ancient history to most people who know about it. Sure, you and I know wilde's poem about the ottoman massacres of Christians but who gets angry about that now, after more than a century?
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
No that's not correct.
The Balfour declaration was official support. And put that into the Mandate. Which British ran.
French support ok wasn't that official. But now it's more clear they were supporting the more militant Zionist groups to cause problems for the British. This had been going on for some time before 48. Due to imperial rivalries in middle east.
French government support for the partition wasn't whole hearted. The UN vote required two thirds majority from what I've been reading recently. And wasn't at the time a foregone conclusion.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Pre 48 Zionists used example of population transfers of Greeks and Turks as example of how it could be done in Palestine. Moving Arab population in Palestine elsewhere in middle east.
So at that time they definitely saw Turkey as example of how it could be done. Clearing land for Jewish settlers
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
[
The world has nothing to say about the facts thats indigenous people in Australia are 3% of the general population but 28% of the prison population; have shorter lives than the general population; and are much more likely to suffer hunger and homelessness.
borgenproject.org
The world has nothing to say about the facts thats indigenous people in Australia are 3% of the general population but 28% of the prison population; have shorter lives than the general population; and are much more likely to suffer hunger and homelessness.
8 Facts About Poverty Among Aboriginal Australians - The Borgen Project
Poverty among Aboriginal Australians has segregated an entire group of people. Indigenious peoples deserve more from the government.
borgenproject.org
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mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Yes, and very quickly started doing all they could to prevent and ban Jewish immigration there. Installed the Mufti of Jerusalem as a leader hostile to jews (he even worked for the nazis). And for example, at the 1938 Evian conference the UK refused to even allow Palestine to be discussed as a potential home for Jewish refugees from nazism.
The support you imagine, wasn't there till well after the end of ww2, when the jews in Palestine basically pulled the rug from under everyone, by unilaterally declaring themselves a state. The first country to recognize it was the USSR, not the USA. And the UK took quite a while longer.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
British and French control in the mandates was based on manipulating ethnoreligious tensions ensuring that political and military power was in the hands of minority rather than majority conmunities. The Sunni in Shia majority Iraq, the Alawi in Sunni majority Syria, the Jews in Palestine.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
You often pull people up about how they phrase things.
As I'm sure you know under the Ottoman empire there was a long standing Jewish population. Not large but living alongside Muslims and Christians.
Hostility was to Zionism. Not Jews as such.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Whilst we are on history went back to look for any articles by Makdisi.
Whose book on later Ottoman empire and co existence I've mentioned previously. ( Yet to read it)
Makdisi is from Lebanon and seen him more recently on TV.
Found this,
aeon.co
Not to long essay on his take on late Ottoman empire.
Far from being a crumbling backward place the late empire was like a lot of the world attempting to modernise.
He puts this in context of world events ( civil war in USA, colonialism of European empires.
His argument basically is that the late empire had modernising tolerant tendency and intolerant nationalistic ones.
The Balkans fell apart.
The middle east part of empire was working towards a new modernised Ottoman identity that included Muslims, Christians and Jews. With secular aspect to it.
He sees the breakup of Ottoman empire the interference by British / French empires and Zionism ( a European movement) a disaster for the region. Which laid the seeds for the conflict now in middle east.
In the Arab part as King / Crane saw when the travelled around the area the ecumenical part of ottoman empire had survived just. Unlike Ataturk new Turkey he was carving out.
There were warnings. The King Crane ( named after the two Americans who did it)commission set up after WW1 to look at what the people of middle east wanted.
It's findings ignored.
Whose book on later Ottoman empire and co existence I've mentioned previously. ( Yet to read it)
Makdisi is from Lebanon and seen him more recently on TV.
Found this,
Ottoman cosmopolitanism and the myth of the sectarian Middle East | Aeon Essays
European colonisation put an abrupt end to political experiments towards a more equal, diverse and ecumenical Arab world
aeon.co
Not to long essay on his take on late Ottoman empire.
Far from being a crumbling backward place the late empire was like a lot of the world attempting to modernise.
He puts this in context of world events ( civil war in USA, colonialism of European empires.
His argument basically is that the late empire had modernising tolerant tendency and intolerant nationalistic ones.
The Balkans fell apart.
The middle east part of empire was working towards a new modernised Ottoman identity that included Muslims, Christians and Jews. With secular aspect to it.
He sees the breakup of Ottoman empire the interference by British / French empires and Zionism ( a European movement) a disaster for the region. Which laid the seeds for the conflict now in middle east.
In the Arab part as King / Crane saw when the travelled around the area the ecumenical part of ottoman empire had survived just. Unlike Ataturk new Turkey he was carving out.
There were warnings. The King Crane ( named after the two Americans who did it)commission set up after WW1 to look at what the people of middle east wanted.
It's findings ignored.
PTK
Paul Kegan
[Apologies for the weird formatting. I don't know how to change it]
In the First World War, the Allied governments of Russia (pre-Revolution), France, and Britain aimed to dismantle the Ottoman Empire (which was allied to Germany and Austria-Hungary). To that end, the British government promised a “national home” for the Jewish people in Palestine, and promised Greek-speaking parts of Anatolia to Greece. (And promised independence to the Arabic-speaking people of the Ottoman Empire).
Some members of the British government had personal value systems and cultural biases that aligned with imperialist ambitions. Some were Christians who saw a religious significance to Jewish people migrating to Palestine. Some were philhellenes.
The invasion of Turkey by Greek forces in 1919, which was prompted by the governments of France and Britain, eventually led to disaster for the Greek people living in Anatolia. Smyrna had had the largest population of Greek speakers in the world, and they were all killed or expelled, and the city was re-named Izmir. As has been mentioned elsewhere on this thread, there was a massive exchange of populations between the two states. “Massive exchange of populations” does not at all convey the immense suffering endured by the people.
People born and raised in Turkey are often hardly aware of the fact that, prior to the bloody events of the 1919-1922, there had been a large population of Greek people in Anatolia for thousands of years, that many famous Greek thinkers had lived in cities there.
How many people born and raised in the State of Israel are aware of the fact that many of the places they live are built on the ruins of Palestinian Arab homes?
If you mean Neturei Karta, then yeah, they are genuine Orthodox Jews, they're Satmars. I have a lot of issues with them but it's not because they're pro-Palestine, it's because they're the kind of frummers who think Jews who died in the Holocaust had it coming because they weren't religious enough. And they're very misogynistic and homophobic. They certainly wouldn't approve of me because I'm not only Reform, but I wear trousers and I'm bisexual to boot. They're also affiliated with the Sikrikim, a group of fundie arseholes who are known as the Mafia of Mea Sharim and throw shit at little girls because their outfits are too slutty, or try to get ice cream parlours banned because the way people eat ice cream is immodest or some crap like that .But gentiles love parading them around as Good Jews because they have big furry hats and peyot.
I really hate the 'self-hating Jew' thing because it's not true, we're not all like that twat Gilad Atzmon. Michael Rosen is pro-Palestine, and he's also openly and proudly Jewish. Not self-hating at all.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
That photo is not acceptable.
tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
Jews who at times suffered murderous persecution from the Christians and Muslims who lived alongside them.
The Damascus Blood Libel
Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org
teqniq
DisMembered
Unacceptable to whom? You, obviously, anyone else? The person who posted it actually changed the image to the one I've put on here from one that showed scenes of devastation. I suspect he did so because he didn't want to pull any punches, which given what is happening right now in Northern Gaza is pretty understandable. I'll put is behind a spoiler but I'm not taking it down.
E2a I see someone's done it for me.
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mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
I chose my words carefully. The Mufti of Jerusalem was hostile to zionism, sure, and also hostile to jews.
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