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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

mojo pixy said:
I believe there are some really vile people out there who don't actually give a fuck about Palestinians but are delighted to finally have a reason they can justify for calling Israel 'nazis'.
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There's also some really vile people out there deliberately instigating genocide and war crimes. Calling them Nazis is a bit misplaced. Let's call them murdering fucking bastards instead.
 
I just heard this on the midnight news on BBC Radio 4. There was no disorder in the area when a 12 year old boy was shot dead by a soldier in a watchtower in a refugee camp near Jerusalem, for lighting a firework.

"Israel's Ben Gvir salutes officer who shot and killed Palestinian child"
www.middleeasteye.net

Ben Gvir salutes Israeli officer who shot and killed Palestinian child

The minister said shooting the 12-year-old boy in Jerusalem's Shuafat camp was 'exactly how you should act'
www.middleeasteye.net www.middleeasteye.net
 
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mojo pixy said:
I believe there are some really vile people out there who don't actually give a fuck about Palestinians but are delighted to finally have a reason they can justify for calling Israel 'nazis'.
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I believe there are some really vile people out there who don't actually give a fuck about Palestinians but are delighted to finally have a reason they can justify a genocide happening against them
 
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Pickman's model said:
It's so kind of the fascists in the zionist government to commit genocide so making it really easy for them
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I think I'd put it slightly differently: it's been a standard conspiraloon trope for years but now the kinds of people who have always liked to say it are being emboldened, by the behaviour of the current Israeli regime.

So right-wing bullies feeding right-wing trolls, being more or less business as usual. It's a shame to see that food being gobbled up by all and sundry though.
 
mojo pixy said:
I think I'd put it slightly differently: it's been a standard conspiraloon trope for years but now the kinds of people who have always liked to say it are being emboldened, by the behaviour of the current Israeli regime.

So right-wing bullies feeding right-wing trolls, being more or less business as usual. It's a shame to see that food being gobbled up by all and sundry though.
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To be fair it's never been much of a stretch to see the way in which the zionist government has treated Palestinians as bringing to mind nazi behaviour. I suppose it can come from a conspiraloon mindset. But i don't think it has to, it's been a commonplace notion among people I know for many years - people I've known since we were at school, people who have never troubled with conspiracy theories, people who tho not members of left-wing political groups are definitely on the left, people who have simply contrasted what they knew about the way nazis behaved with the way the zionists have done. Making out it's rw bullies feeding rw trolls for me misses out the extent to which the behaviour of successive zionist governments have provided the ammunition for people to draw these conclusions, which have existed since long before social media.
 
Pickman's model said:
To be fair it's never been much of a stretch to see the way in which the zionist government has treated Palestinians as bringing to mind nazi behaviour. I suppose it can come from a conspiraloon mindset. But i don't think it has to, it's been a commonplace notion among people I know for many years - people I've known since we were at school, people who have never troubled with conspiracy theories, people who tho not members of left-wing political groups are definitely on the left, people who have simply contrasted what they knew about the way nazis behaved with the way the zionists have done. Making out it's rw bullies feeding rw trolls for me misses out the extent to which the behaviour of successive zionist governments have provided the ammunition for people to draw these conclusions, which have existed since long before social media.
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I have long thought it's OK - necessary, even - to highlight cruel and unjust behaviour of the Israeli state, and to put as much pressure as possible on it to change and do the right thing, up to and including boycotts and sanctions.

But calling it 'nazi' has always been the preserve of a particular type of critic who tends to also come out with stuff like 'I can't be anti-semitic because arabs are semitic people. lol'. And you're right, those aren't always people with generally right-wing politics.
 
While we are talking another child will have died in Gaza.

I have found it so demoralising that mainstream western media has taken so long to recognise that 30000 people killed is too many.. that the Israeli leadership is deliberately starving, maiming, and bombing completely innocent people...many of whom are women and children. It is abhorrent to me and that abhorrence is not being displayed much on mainstream media. Certainly during the first 2 months mainstream media was not showing the full picture. Social media on the other hand was showing it all and it became obvious that thousands of innocent Palestinians were being slaughtered. The bombing of hospitals...was validated by Netanyahu because he claimed Hamas were there. They bombed the only safe place people could go. Thousands of people have moved to Rafah to avoid being slaughtered. They were told to go there by the Israelis. Now its clear that Rafah is being bombed...and a ground assault is started. Nothing Netanyahu has promised the Palestinians has come true. There is no place safe for Palestinians in Rafah.
They're coralled into a small location with no food no clean water, disease is spreading, children are starving to death...and Netanyahu is not allowing food aid in. Within a week there will be thousands dying from pneumonias & starvation. Death toll is over 30000 already. Bombs dropped on Gaza equivalent to two atomic bombs.
Palestine land is up for sale in Canada & the US for settlers only.
They're selling off the Palestinians homes & land because they dont want them back. They wont feed them or treat their diseases .. because they dont want them back.
They are deliberately targeting women and children because they dont want them to return to their homes.

See it for what it is..I dont care what word is used... this is extreme punishment and the elimination of one group of people by another.
 
I opened MEE just now.. and this is a recording from an Israeli tv channel. The social media haters might not appreciate this....but this mind set needs to be seen to be believed.

 
mojo pixy said:
I have long thought it's OK - necessary, even - to highlight cruel and unjust behaviour of the Israeli state, and to put as much pressure as possible on it to change and do the right thing, up to and including boycotts and sanctions.

But calling it 'nazi' has always been the preserve of a particular type of critic who tends to also come out with stuff like 'I can't be anti-semitic because arabs are semitic people. lol'. And you're right, those aren't always people with generally right-wing politics.
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all I can say that in at least my experience you're mistaken. the people I know are in no way anti-semitic, being members of a circle of friends which includes jews, and have never said anything like the 'i can't be anti-semitic because' thing you propose. i suspect that over the past 35 years in which i've known them that any anti-semitism would have become apparent, that drinking around the corner from a wide range of jewish institutions in finchley they might have let slip some animosity against synagogues etc had their views inclined that way. perhaps the range of people who share the view that israeli governments act like nazis is simply wider than you know.
 
Pickman's model said:
all I can say that in at least my experience you're mistaken. the people I know are in no way anti-semitic, being members of a circle of friends which includes jews, and have never said anything like the 'i can't be anti-semitic because' thing you propose. i suspect that over the past 35 years in which i've known them that any anti-semitism would have become apparent, that drinking around the corner from a wide range of jewish institutions in finchley they might have let slip some animosity against synagogues etc had their views inclined that way. perhaps the range of people who share the view that israeli governments act like nazis is simply wider than you know.
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All I can judge by is my own experience of the people I've encountered who are happy to call Israel - not its government but the entire nation apparently - not just right-wing, not even fascist, but actually 'nazi'. As if nazism wasn't a particular ideology at a particular time that did particular things.

It's not any kind of analysis (invoking 'nazis' tends to come from a lack of that IME), it's just an insult, a way of lashing out and specifically aimed at insulting non-'anti-zionist' jews. Which is fine as far as it goes, but it's not really useful to anyone but the kind of person who just wants to insult a whole group for the actions of an extremist government.
 
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The Nazi thing is difficult - it is both sadly and horrifcally accurate, but at the same time there is sometimes a certain 'glee' in people's use of it in terms of obviously it is going to cause maximum hurt and offence and they want it to and that can easily be read as antisemitism, even if it isn't meant that way. I sometimes say I think it's an accusation that hits more meaningfully coming from Jews because when you're Jewish it kind of hurts you to say it as well... but obviously you can't control that.

On a slightly related note, I've noticed something about the development of the discourse around this from left wing non-Jews which, at the beginning was more 'We mustn't conflate "Jews" with "Israel"' and now seems to have drifted more towards 'Well, not all Jews are Zionists' signifying 'Right kind of Jew anti-Zionist, wrong kind of Jew Zionist' and it's more complicated than that. Yes, the vast majority of Jews are Zionist. And you can find a person who's read books and listened to podcasts and watched YouTube videos about how this and that 'founder of Zionism' (a label that encompasses a lot of people) was a Palestinian-hating piece of shit and how Zionism can only lead to a racist ethnostate, and you can find a person who's read books and listened to podcasts and watched YouTube videos about how all Zionism is is the belief in a Jewish homeland and here are all the reasons it is necessary. Most Jews are not on either end of the scale - they sincerely believe that it's simply the belief in a Jewish homeland, they haven't read every book about it and listened to every podcast about it. As I've mentioned before, I'm not attached to Israel in the way many Jews are but I get why people do feel that way and that it is (mostly I think) not accompanied with some kind of hatred of Palestinians, or support for settlers and the like. I honestly don't know if I'm Zionist or antizionist; I guess I feel Israel is there so it's a moot point and I don't believe there is some safe or sane way to dismantle it somehow, and that also that would be an act of vandalism as it's an amazing country in many ways. I do believe Jews ought to place more importance and accord more respect, perhaps, to the diaspora rather than focusing all our hopes and dreams on Israel, as often seems to be the case.
 
Aladdin said:
See it for what it is..I dont care what word is used... this is extreme punishment and the elimination of one group of people by another.
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But words can be harmful. Words can spread hatred that can lead to the justification of all kinds of horrors. It's not either/or - we can condemn the war crimes in Gaza without being flippant about using harmful tropes.
 
mojo pixy said:
All I can judge by is my own experience of the people I've encountered who are happy to call Israel - not its government but the entire nation apparently - not just right-wing, not even fascist, but actually 'nazi'. As if nazism wasn't a particular ideology at a particular time that did particular things.

It's not any kind of analysis (invoking 'nazis' tends to come from a lack of that IME), it's just an insult, a way of lashing out and specifically aimed at insulting non-'anti-zionist' jews. Which is fine as far as it goes, but it's not really useful to anyone but the kind of person who just wants to insult a whole group for the actions of an extremist government.
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Fair points. I agree that using certain words is harmful. I was amazed that the parallel was being made on US tv.

They are nowhere near any kind of peaceful resolution at this stage.
Talks of ceasefire are only for a temporary 6 week ceasefire and its pretty clear that Israel (government and army) are aiming to completely remove all Palestinians from Gaza. And more than likely the West Bank too. This is land grab, ethnic cleansing, pushing the Palestinians out one way or the other. Its also clear that Netanyahu does not want a two state solution. And nobody within the Israeli government seems able to stop Netanyahu and bis supporters. I've seen videos on soc media of Israeli people marching for an end to the war. Marching for ceasefire. They are not being listened to by Netanyahu and his government.
 
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