Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[PTK]

Yes that really grates with me, no matter how many times I hear it.

But do you condemn the ministry of health?

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes I was thinking the strategy might be to drag the Americans into it.

I don't think they'd have to tug very hard

 

[Gramsci]

Watched this documentary. It does a history of the settlement movement on the West Bank.

Started after 67. At first government authorities opposed the settlers. It took a long while before they were accepted by government.

This surprised me. There was a time when these people were the far right religious fringe.

At the beginning Israeli governments were advised it was against Geneva convention to build settlements on occupied land.

The first settlers were very religious. Justifying it on religious grounds.

It was only later with the election of right government in Israel that settlement building got really going.

The composition of settlers changed. Some came due to cheaper house prices. Russians came. Only 20 percent of the settlers now are religious hard liners.

Rest as doc says do not necessarily believe ideologically in Greater Israel. But now are economically invested in keeping the land now they have a good lifestyle on it. Government has built roads etc. Very good infrastructure.

Other part of doc shows that settlement building is way of making Palestinian state unviable. Governments been told to stop it by US and havent.

Bottom line is that settlements are now the "facts on the ground" To numerous and to many Israelis from now a cross section of Israeli society to make it feasible to move them to make a two state solution. Its not just the hardline religious

Pretty amazing footage going back years and interviews with the original settlers and younger ones.

Just to add to my post

I thought this was an excellent documentary.

It didnt treat the settlers as off the wall to be ridiculed. ( Even though I was a bit gob smacked about what they came out with). It was part history doc and part talking heads. Taking them seriously and allowing viewer to make judgement.

The doc maker had managed to get the main players to talk. It is from the Israeli side. Palestinians crop up in the doc. But its mainly from Israeli side. Which I did not have a problem with.

It reminded me of some posts of mojo pixy where they say rise of right in Israel was frightening. ( I think correct me if Im wrong)

That at one point there was a chance for peace. With Rabin who was murdered by a settler it was dashed This crops up in Doc. These people are regarded as good Zionists and heroes who killed Rabin and Palestinians.

The settler were religious fringe group. There is point in the doc where friend of Shimon Peres recounts how he asked him years later whether he regretted not taking a harder line with the religious settlers. He reportedly said if he had known what a monster these religious settlers would become he would have clamped down on them harder.

And - this I was gobsmacked about the doc has a pioneer religious settler talking about how he organized terrorist actions against Palestinians. For example attempting by car bombs to kill three Palestinian mayors.Completely unrepentant.

There is footage of Rabin rightly pointing out the cost to Israel of having IDF guard them. My Israeli who I worked with years ago had to do that as part of his national service in IDF and he loathed them

In doc they are living the fantasy life of working the land and living simply. In background are IDF. This must cost a fortune.

Israeli academic Moshe Halbertal says the religious settler movement in occupied territories ideology comes from the "sewer" of old school European nationalism. Its a Folk movement based around on connection with the land. Like a lot of old European nationalisms.

And its these people who now have so much credibility in Israel. Who successfully derailed any land for peace deal.

Not that this was all out of line with the more secular Zionism of the original Labour Zionists.

At points in the doc the religious settlers go on about borders of a Greater Israel. This was always in the sights of the Labour Zionists in early days.

 

[Larry O'Hara]

But do you condemn the ministry of health?

Obviously not! It is the phrase I object to

 

[two sheds]

I've seen a couple of videos that were apparently showing Israeli settlers physically taking over palestinian houses with the reply on one of them to "why are you doing this?" being "if we didn't somebody else will". Really depressing.

 

[teqniq]

Tick-tock:

Benjamin Netanyahu is losing control

Benjamin Netanyahu is waging a war while struggling to avoid prison, salvage his legacy and keep his political partners happy.

www.politico.com

 

[PTK]

Obviously not! It is the phrase I object to

I was attempting to make a joke.

 

[Gramsci]

I've seen a couple of videos that were apparently showing Israeli settlers physically taking over palestinian houses with the reply on one of them to "why are you doing this?" being "if we didn't somebody else will". Really depressing.

Reminds me of the documentary. The film maker asks a Palestinian farmer why he does not put up a fence to show the settlement nearby this is his land. His answer is if I do that Im accepting that some of this land is theirs. My family have farmed this land for generations under the Ottomans and the British. Neither of whom tried to take it from us. Nor did they need fences them. The illegal settlement he pointed out was built on his land.

The settlers really believe Palestinians have no right to this land. That therefore, as one said in the doc, they are not settlers. This is their land.

At one point in doc he fllms one of the second generation settlers - a young woman- standing in front of Palestinian farmer on his tractor trying to plow a field. The doc maker asks her why she is doing this and she says with a straight face that the Palestinian did not have a permit to do this. She could not see as an , under international law, an illegal settler that saying a Palestinian farmer was breaking it is a load of bollox.

The other thing about the occupation is way the Israeli state sets up the rules of occupation with bogus legalistic measures targeted at Palestinians.

 

[two sheds]

From skwawkbox I'm afraid, but because they give extended quotes.

Video: former US assistant SecDef agrees kibbutz/rave deaths caused by IDF

In ‘extraordinary’ interview, Chas Freeman blames Israeli forces for ‘massacre’ and says Israel has equated itself with ‘burned buildings and dead babies’ A form…

skwawkbox.org

Also says that hostage taking by hamas "was aimed primarily at taking Israeli soldiers.
The kibbutzim are garrisoned with soldiers, they are military settlements. Many of the people, the men there and some of the women, are in the Israeli reserves and hamas sought to take them as hostages. Undisciplined fire by helicopters with hellfire missiles and tanks with incendiary rounds directed at buildings is what happened and this is a disgrace in military terms ..."

And that the people at the music festival were also killed by Israeli fire.

Don't know how accurate that is, but from "former US assistant Secretary of Defence"

 

[CH1]

Quite an interesting bit of reportage here I thought. The Thai captive freed - his Israeli fellow captives were the three who were shot by Israeli forces later on.

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archive.is

 

[Idris2002]

Quite an interesting bit of reportage here I thought. The Thai captive freed - his Israeli fellow captives were the three who were shot by Israeli forces later on.

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archive.is

"Don't shoot him, Pike".

 

[Karl Masks]

Horrific reporting on Novara last night of the experience of innocent Palestianians tortured by the IDF. These are the poor sods who were made to sit in some town square in their underwear.

Kids apparently are losing limbs at a horrific rate and, apparently, one of the biggest medical experiences is the rise in heart attacks due to the trauma they, children, are experiencing.

This is so fucked up

 

[_Russ_]

Regev is scum.

Just heard this horrible shithead on the radio explaining how Lebanon should be following a certain UN Resolution...FFS

I think you add the Title Blatant Unflinching Hypocrite to his many Qualities

 

[littlebabyjesus]

From skwawkbox I'm afraid, but because they give extended quotes.

Video: former US assistant SecDef agrees kibbutz/rave deaths caused by IDF

In ‘extraordinary’ interview, Chas Freeman blames Israeli forces for ‘massacre’ and says Israel has equated itself with ‘burned buildings and dead babies’ A form…

skwawkbox.org

Also says that hostage taking by hamas "was aimed primarily at taking Israeli soldiers.
The kibbutzim are garrisoned with soldiers, they are military settlements. Many of the people, the men there and some of the women, are in the Israeli reserves and hamas sought to take them as hostages. Undisciplined fire by helicopters with hellfire missiles and tanks with incendiary rounds directed at buildings is what happened and this is a disgrace in military terms ..."

And that the people at the music festival were also killed by Israeli fire.

Don't know how accurate that is, but from "former US assistant Secretary of Defence"

A few Israeli eyewitness accounts from survivors of 7 October have been leaking out. It is certain that they killed some of their own. How many, we probably will never know. But it is a good point to highlight the 200 dead who were reclassified from Israeli to Hamas. Before that reclassification, they thought they had killed 200 more of their own than they had. What is that number now after the revision?

ETA:

I think the point he makes that is clearly true is that the IDF is staffed by a bunch of badly trained, ill-prepared soldiers who will panic and make poor decisions under pressure. Scared quite possibly. Undisciplined probably. Brutal very certainly.

 

[_Russ_]

Horrific reporting on Novara last night of the experience of innocent Palestianians tortured by the IDF. These are the poor sods who were made to sit in some town square in their underwear.

Kids apparently are losing limbs at a horrific rate and, apparently, one of the biggest medical experiences is the rise in heart attacks due to the trauma they, children, are experiencing.

This is so fucked up

Y'know I can remember the exact image That woke me up to what was happening in Israel, it was sometime early eighties and showed 2 Israeli Soldiers and one unarmed Palistinian teenager one Israeli held the Palistinian boy's arm outstretched with the elbow over a large rock while the other one smashed it with another rock

 

[TopCat]

Y'know I can remember the exact image That woke me up to what was happening in Israel, it was sometime early eighties and showed 2 Israeli Soldiers and one unarmed Palistinian teenager one Israeli held the Palistinian boy's arm outstretched with the elbow over a large rock while the other one smashed it with another rock

I remember the broken arm policy of the intifada. I recollect it driving David Mellor mp to verbally castigate the Israelis, something the Labour Party refused to do at the time.

 

[Karl Masks]

Y'know I can remember the exact image That woke me up to what was happening in Israel, it was sometime early eighties and showed 2 Israeli Soldiers and one unarmed Palistinian teenager one Israeli held the Palistinian boy's arm outstretched with the elbow over a large rock while the other one smashed it with another rock

Fucking hell on earth

 

[_Russ_]

I remember the broken arm policy of the intifada. I recollect it driving David Mellor mp to verbally castigate the Israelis, something the Labour Party refused to do at the time.

 

[agricola]

A few Israeli eyewitness accounts from survivors of 7 October have been leaking out. It is certain that they killed some of their own. How many, we probably will never know. But it is a good point to highlight the 200 dead who were reclassified from Israeli to Hamas. Before that reclassification, they thought they had killed 200 more of their own than they had. What is that number now after the revision?

ETA:

I think the point he makes that is clearly true is that the IDF is staffed by a bunch of badly trained, ill-prepared soldiers who will panic and make poor decisions under pressure. Scared quite possibly. Undisciplined probably. Brutal very certainly.

TBF I am not sure about that ETA point - no army is trained to do what the IDF has been ordered to do, to storm what is essentially an urban defensive fortification five miles wide by twenty miles long. Yes, the majority of them are conscripts but even the elite formations of the world would cause a bloodbath if asked to do what the IDF has been asked to.

The history of sieges is replete with the same sort of incidents as are reported from Gaza every day, especially in terms of the men of the army doing the assaulting being allowed to get away with almost anything against civilians during and after the assault.

 

[Pickman's model]

It would be useful if people remembered that the idf was enlarged before the onslaught on gaza not by summoning new conscripts but recalling reservists to the colours. They have performed military service and are not some callow military newbies 'A lot of adrenaline, a lot of unknowns': Reservists flock to join Israel's fight

 

[YouSir]

TBF I am not sure about that ETA point - no army is trained to do what the IDF has been ordered to do, to storm what is essentially an urban defensive fortification five miles wide by twenty miles long. Yes, the majority of them are conscripts but even the elite formations of the world would cause a bloodbath if asked to do what the IDF has been asked to.

The history of sieges is replete with the same sort of incidents as are reported from Gaza every day, especially in terms of the men of the army doing the assaulting being allowed to get away with almost anything against civilians during and after the assault.

A feature, not a fault. If your national project relies on dehumanising, killing and displacing an entire ethnic group then having poorly trained conscripts enact that is a good way to build broad social/cultural complicity.

 

[Pickman's model]

A feature, not a fault. If your national project relies on dehumanising, killing and displacing an entire ethnic group then having poorly trained conscripts enact that is a good way to build broad social/cultural complicity.

I'll reiterate that the zionists mobilised their reserve for the current slaughter. I even provided a link just a minute ago

 

[YouSir]

I'll reiterate that the zionists mobilised their reserve for the current slaughter. I even provided a link just a minute ago

Saw that after I posted. Either way it's a system of national conscription, having served doesn't equate to having any experience or even particularly relevant training, there are a lot of roles available and even the routine duties of bullying Palestinians is something many may never have experienced. When it comes to facing actual risk a lot of them certainly are 'callow military newbies'.

e2a: Point being in the invasion of Gaza they're not far off a glorified militia, that they're never represented as such is a reflection on how Israelis get viewed vs everyone else (maybe how 'Western' militarism is viewed too for that matter).

 

[agricola]

A feature, not a fault. If your national project relies on dehumanising, killing and displacing an entire ethnic group then having poorly trained conscripts enact that is a good way to build broad social/cultural complicity.

Not sure that they need to be poorly trained; in fact having them well trained makes it easier to do the dispossessing, killing, displacing etc.

 

[Pickman's model]

Saw that after I posted. Either way it's a system of national conscription, having served doesn't equate to having any experience or even particularly relevant training, there are a lot of roles available and even the routine duties of bullying Palestinians is something many may never have experienced. When it comes to facing actual risk a lot of them certainly are 'callow military newbies'.

e2a: Point being in the invasion of Gaza they're not far off a glorified militia, that they're never represented as such is a reflection on how Israelis get viewed vs everyone else (maybe how 'Western' militarism is viewed too for that matter).

All of the male reservists have served at least 2 years 8 months. That's a fair amount of experience in any army, even if you knock off 6 months for basic training.

 

[YouSir]

Not sure that they need to be poorly trained; in fact having them well trained makes it easier to do the dispossessing, killing, displacing etc.

I'm sure some in the IDF would agree, but it's also an integral part of the Israeli identity and building cultural cohesion for the occupation. I think, ultimately, universal service and complicity is more important than absolute efficiency, which isn't particularly fostered by having a system of universal conscription where you get a load of people who may be useless for the job pushed into service. When it's suggested that the model alters though you get stuff like this... IDF chief: The 'People's Army' model is the only one that can succeed

 

[Pickman's model]

Petition to expel the zionist ambassador We Can Make an Impact.

 

[tim]

Saudis are still very keen on normalising their relationship with Israel once war is over. Apart from anything else they see Israel as being as anti-Iran as Saudi is and they probably need Israeli approval for the full implementation of the Crown Prince's plans for Neom.

Saudi Arabia interested in Israel normalisation deal after war

The Saudi ambassador to the UK says any agreement must lead to the creation of a Palestinian state.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Ĝasper]

I was wondering if it's worth having a sub thread on the forum, like Ukraine has.

 

[Pickman's model]

I was wondering if it's worth having a sub thread on the forum, like Ukraine has.

Go on then