Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Gramsci]

The view that Israel happened and cannot be changed is just a historical.

This country has changed. South Africa has changed. Interestingly India has changed the other way towards an exclusive Hindu nationalism.

Israel didn't just "happen" and that was that.

The partition of Palestine gave the Zionists a state. What it didn't do was give them a state exclusively for Jews. So they set about expelling the Palestinians.

The above is what I and others ( including some non Zionist Jews) have a problem with.

The argument goes everyone was at this at that time so why pick on Israel. Its not an argument that is a positive reason for Israel not to change.

The way Israel could change is as the BTselem imply - to make Israel a democracy for all people within in the land it controls.

That it controls West Bank and Gaza so these should all get a vote. The other thing is to drop the Nation State law. Which entrenches an ethno nationalist state and makes Palestinians second class citizens.

Of course Israel can be changed. The pressure to do this has to come from outside.

Change of course would mean it would no longer be a Zionist state. That is really the problem for some people - though they would rather not say that.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The view that Israel happened and cannot be changed is just a historical.

This country has changed. South Africa has changed. Interestingly India has changed the other way towards an exclusive Hindu nationalism.

Israel didn't just "happen" and that was that.

The partition of Palestine gave the Zionists a state. What it didn't do was give them a state exclusively for Jews. So they set about expelling the Palestinians.

The above is what I and others ( including some non Zionist Jews) have a problem with.

The argument goes everyone was at this at that time so why pick on Israel. Its not an argument that is a positive reason for Israel not to change.

The way Israel could change is as the BTselem imply - to make Israel a democracy for all people within in the land it controls.

That it controls West Bank and Gaza so these should all get a vote. The other thing is to drop the Nation State law. Which entrenches an ethno nationalist state and makes Palestinians second class citizens.

Of course Israel can be changed. The pressure to do this has to come from outside.

Change of course would mean it would no longer be a Zionist state. That is really the problem for some people - though they would rather not say that.

Exactly. Jewish immigration and settlement has happened, therefore there has to be a Jewish state? No, all that means is that there has to be a state with Jews in it.

States can and do change their nature all the time. More recently, that has mostly involved existing states breaking up, but it doesn't have to go in that direction. The idea of multiethnic states is, imo, one that is worth arguing for. There is more than one way to foster a common sense of belonging. Appeals to ethnicity or religion are some of the very worst ways.

 

[TopCat]

Decent demo happening in central. Westminster bridge is out.

 

[Pickman's model]

Exactly. Jewish immigration and settlement has happened, therefore there has to be a Jewish state? No, all that means is that there has to be a state with Jews in it.

States can and do change their nature all the time. More recently, that has mostly involved existing states breaking up, but it doesn't have to go in that direction. The idea of multiethnic states is, imo, one that is worth arguing for. There is more than one way to foster a common sense of belonging. Appeals to ethnicity or religion are some of the very worst ways.

Tbh as history has shown on numerous occasions despite there being a population in a certain space, that is no reason to say they will remain there

 

[teqniq]

If this man is right I think it's likely that both Israel and the US will ignore the court's determination:

 

[teqniq]

Why indeed?

 

[PTK]

presumably it wasnt disputed... supine press = people chat shit

It was disputed by the interviewer.

 

[tim]

The view that Israel happened and cannot be changed is just a historical.

This country has changed. South Africa has changed. Interestingly India has changed the other way towards an exclusive Hindu nationalism.

Israel didn't just "happen" and that was that.

The partition of Palestine gave the Zionists a state. What it didn't do was give them a state exclusively for Jews. So they set about expelling the Palestinians.

The above is what I and others ( including some non Zionist Jews) have a problem with.

The argument goes everyone was at this at that time so why pick on Israel. Its not an argument that is a positive reason for Israel not to change.

The way Israel could change is as the BTselem imply - to make Israel a democracy for all people within in the land it controls.

That it controls West Bank and Gaza so these should all get a vote. The other thing is to drop the Nation State law. Which entrenches an ethno nationalist state and makes Palestinians second class citizens.

Of course Israel can be changed. The pressure to do this has to come from outside.

Change of course would mean it would no longer be a Zionist state. That is really the problem for some people - though they would rather not say that.

When I said it happened and that cannot be changed, I was responding to the following.

Do you think the state of Israel should have been set up in that place and at that time?

My point was that Israel was established and that is what can't be changed. The future can change and the current political entities can and will changed in ways that may be positive or negative.

I'm not into this game of blaming Jews who emigrated, virtually all of whom are now dead, because for many the alternative would have been continued persecution and and a high probability of being murdered.

I don't think that the Pogroms and the Holocaust should have happened but they did.

I don't blame Palestinians for resisting occupation either and I don't blame those who support Hamas because they believe that Hamas has resisted Israeli oppression more bravely and consistently than other political groups.

 

[PTK]

If this man is right I thinks it's likely that both Israel and the US will ignore the court's determination:

Such a ruling by the ICJ would give an enormous boost to the peace movement.

 

[Gramsci]

I would like to point out I've tried to differentiate between Zionists/ Zionism and Jews throughout this thread.

I don't blame Jews for Israel. Its Zionism and Zionists that are to blame.

Its an important distinction to make.

An one that gets elided by those who support Israeli state and don't like it being criticised.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I would like to point out I've tried to differentiate between Zionists/ Zionism and Jews throughout this thread.

I don't blame Jews for Israel. Its Zionism and Zionists that are to blame.

Its an important distinction to make.

An one that gets elided by those who support Israeli state and don't like it being criticised.

Yes, and questioning 'the right of Israel to exist' isn't the same as demanding the genocide of 7 million Jews. That is often the disingenuous implication. They want to kill us/expel us. No, there are other approaches, such as 'live in peace with us'.

Also, generally people have rights. States mostly have responsibilities.

 

[tim]

I would like to point out I've tried to differentiate between Zionists/ Zionism and Jews throughout this thread.

I don't blame Jews for Israel. Its Zionism and Zionists that are to blame.

Its an important distinction to make.

An one that gets elided by those who support Israeli state and don't like it being criticised.

Do you blame those Jews who in the first half of the Twentieth Century who emigrated to Palestine to escape persecution in Europe? Should they have sought to survive the pogroms and waited for the Holocaust? What is your attitude to those Jews who were driven from their homes in states in the Middle East following the creation of Israel? Do you blame them for moving to Israel?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Do you blame those Jews who in the first half of the Twentieth Century who emigrated to Palestine to escape persecution in Europe? Should they have sought to survive the pogroms and waited for the Holocaust? What is your attitude to those Jews who were driven from their homes in states in the Middle East following the creation of Israel? Do you blame them for moving to Israel?

fwiw I will tell you who I blame. I'll bring things up to date and not bother with dead settler-colonialists like Moshe Dayan. I blame every Israeli who has undermined efforts for peace from the 1990s onwards. So everyone in the current government and a fair few in the opposition ranks as well, every illegal settler in the West Bank. Shame on every single one of them.

 

[Wilf]

Why wasn't Israel a nation in 1948? Do you consider it to be a nation now? Was Pakistan a nation when it also became independent in 1948? If so, what made it different from Israel?

Do you think the state of Israel should have been set up in that place and at that time?

.

It happened and that can't be changed. I don't see the creation of an Israeli national identity as being different from the creation of other national identities at the period, which is why I mentioned Pakistan which was also created as an overtly confessional state but there are plenty of other examples in post colonial Europe, Asia, Africa and Oceania.

I'm not surprised that Jews chose to emigrate to the region in such numbers given that the opportunity to do so became available under the Ottoman and British Empires. The main attraction of emigration was to escape being defamed, persecuted, robbed raped and murdered. The pogroms and the Holocaust are the most egregious examples of that persecution, but there was much else besides; the rise of rabidly antisemitic parties in the nations carved out of the Ottoman and Austrian, German and Ottoman Empires after WW1; Father Couglan preaching hate on behalf of the Roman Catholic Church on the radio stations of the USA; Sir Oswald Mosley marching with his paramilitary squadrons of thugs and physically attacking Jews on the streets of Britain with the support of the Daily Mail and Lord Rotheremere; the persecution of Dreyfus and the subsequent rise of the pseudo-intellectual Jew hating Action Francaise in France.


I'm aware that I'm repeating myself and that I've said things similar to this further up the thread at least once.

The history of antisemitism, pogroms and, of course, the holocaust, isn't disputed. They provided a powerful reason for Jewish people worldwide to desire security and yes, a homeland. Equally, I'm not calling for the destruction of the state of Israel, because it's pointless and won't happen. But the circumstances of Jewish statehood are massively significant, they are what this is all about. Jews had not been the dominant population group in Palestine since, from memory, the 4th Century. Jews/Israel emerged as the favoured group from a long period of Ottoman and British colonialism and the state was founded on ethnic cleansing, the theft of property (which had been going on before 1948) and violence. The actions of the emerging Israeli state and the support provided by major world powers led to where we are today. A decision to found a state where there was only a minority Jewish presence and where, if the British had allowed such things, a ballot of the people of Palestine would never have allowed that state to come into being.

Again, I don't minimise the desire of Jewish people for security and even statehood. But creating that state in a land populated for centuries by a non-Jewish majority (plus the Nakba) was a heinous crime. Creating a long term solution where Jewish people could live in safety was never going to be easy, but imposing it in Arab lands showed the contempt that Arabs were held in by both Israel and Europeans. That's why the formation of the Israeli state remains a live issue.

Might just add that the sentiments above would have me classed as an antisemite in the USA certainly and in the minds of the current government and opposition. That's also a measure of how fucked up things are.

 

[Wilf]

Equally, I'm not calling for the destruction of the state of Israel, because it's pointless and won't happen.

Not sure why I'm qualifying this, probably a lingering desire to avoid being accused of antisemitism. Anyway, in a sense I do desire the destruction of the state of Israel, but only by hoping for it's replacement with an agreed muti-ethic state at some point in the future.

 

[ska invita]

. The idea of multiethnic states is, imo, one that is worth arguing for.

...and ethnostatism must be argued against on all cases

I wonder how much truth there is in this:

 

[littlebabyjesus]

...and ethnostatism must be argued against on all cases

I wonder how much truth there is in this:

Which bit? That Israel sold arms to apartheid SA is well established. And Israel has adopted various apartheid SA-style policies since then. It's the perfect country to bring a case against Israel. It has a genuine moral authority to do so.

 

[ska invita]

Which bit? That Israel sold arms to apartheid SA is well established. And Israel has adopted various apartheid SA-style policies since then. It's the perfect country to bring a case against Israel. It has a genuine moral authority to do so.

I meant the rationale as to how come it is South Africa that is bringing the case, yes it has moral authority, but I wonder how much comes down to personal experiences and even sense of long arc of justice

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I meant the rationale as to how come it is South Africa that is bringing the case, yes it has moral authority, but I wonder how much comes down to personal experiences and even sense of long arc of justice

Oh I see. Gonna be a factor, surely. It's not a coincidence that it is South Africa that is doing this.

 

[agricola]

Which bit? That Israel sold arms to apartheid SA is well established. And Israel has adopted various apartheid SA-style policies since then. It's the perfect country to bring a case against Israel. It has a genuine moral authority to do so.

TBF they did a lot more than just sell arms.

 

[two sheds]

This sounds eminently sensible, highly unlikely given present circumstances but something to push for?

Middle East crisis live: creation of Palestinian state is only way to peace, EU foreign policy chief says

Josep Borrell wants European-Arab initiative to revive a peace process, with the ultimate aim being a two-state solution

www.theguardian.com

Only way to peace is Palestinian state, says EU foreign policy chief

Speaking at a news conference held with the Lebanese prime minister, Najib Mikati, Borrell [EU’s foreign policy chief] said he wanted to start a European-Arab initiative to revive a peace process, with the ultimate aim being a two-state solution.

“The only way is the creation of a Palestinian state,” he said, adding that the prospect of a state would offer a “horizon of hope” to the Palestinians.

He said he would also visit Saudi Arabia on Sunday to discuss steps to secure peace across the region.

 

[Gramsci]

Exactly. Jewish immigration and settlement has happened, therefore there has to be a Jewish state? No, all that means is that there has to be a state with Jews in it.

States can and do change their nature all the time. More recently, that has mostly involved existing states breaking up, but it doesn't have to go in that direction. The idea of multiethnic states is, imo, one that is worth arguing for. There is more than one way to foster a common sense of belonging. Appeals to ethnicity or religion are some of the very worst ways.

Agree

To keep it simple as State of Israel effectively controls the Occupied territories and Gaza then the South African OMOV could apply across the whole area controlled by this State.

This is straightforward run of the mill democracy.

Yet for some it appears to be a problem. Israeli Jews and Palestinians living on equal terms voting wise.

 

[krtek a houby]

Not sure why I'm qualifying this, probably a lingering desire to avoid being accused of antisemitism. Anyway, in a sense I do desire the destruction of the state of Israel, but only by hoping for it's replacement with an agreed muti-ethic state at some point in the future.

Possibly the word destruction is loaded, can see some people favouring the word restructuring as less emotive.

A multi-ethnic state is desirable, but cannot see the hardcore right going for that option anytime soon. They won't be satisfied until Palestinian people are removed. Then, they'll probably start on the left wing, the Beta Israel, and the Israelis who speak out against the slaughter.

 

[Wilf]

Possibly the word destruction is loaded, can see some people favouring the word restructuring as less emotive.

A multi-ethnic state is desirable, but cannot see the hardcore right going for that option anytime soon. They won't be satisfied until Palestinian people are removed. Then, they'll probably start on the left wing, the Beta Israel, and the Israelis who speak out against the slaughter.

Yep.

 

[spring-peeper]

new stats

 

[SpookyFrank]

new stats

View attachment 407388

You forgot to put the phrase, 'according to the Hamas-run health ministry' in there, as is apparently required by law.

 

[Aladdin]

 

[SpookyFrank]

Stealing land from the Palestinians, gosh why haven't they ever thought of that before?

 

[Pickman's model]

He's the spit of the evil priest out of the mummy