Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[Aladdin]

Stealing land from the Palestinians, gosh why haven't they ever thought of that before?

The admission that it's their land says it all. They know exactly what they do. The pretence is clear to ordinary people. This is ethnic cleansing, stealing and occupation of another country's land and resources. They are genocidal.

 

[SpookyFrank]

The admission that it's their land says it all. They know exactly what they do. The pretence is clear to ordinary people. This is ethnic cleansing, stealing and occupation of another country's land and resources. They are genocidal.

Don't forget collective punishment.

 

[Aladdin]

He's the spit of the evil priest out of the mummy

That's who he reminded me of....

Imhotep Arnold Vasloo

He's actually from South Africa, now living in the US

 

[teqniq]

Worth a watch and share:

 

[CH1]

It was amazing how Mike Pence kicked off his interview with Wilfred Frost on Sky News this morning with a pre-emptive strike giving total support to Israel's Hamas counter attack.
I guess most people were probably expecting him to be asked to explain what happend on January 6th 2020 - I know I was. But we had to wait some time until Mr Pence had said all he wanted to say in support of Israsel.
His Zoom backdrop tastefully even placed him in Jerusalem

The Times of Israel gives the low-down on his position (article written in June 2023). This man may appear meek and mild but he is even more right wing than Trump.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/as-he-takes-on-trump-pence-brings-starkly-different-approach-to-jewish-concerns/

 

[Gramsci]

This is standard Zionism.

In 1930s there was a lot of discussion within Zionism and with the British authorities about relocating Palestinian population out of Palestine to neighbouring areas. What is now Jordan or preferably further away in what is now Iraq and Syria.

Realizing that partition might be on the cards the mainstream of Zionism agreed that transfer of population must go along with any partition. Otherwise would have Arab population within the new Zionist state.

At end of the video he says West countries should take people from Gaza as refugees. Aid them in rebuilding their lives whilst Israel takes over Gaza.

In 30s Zionists were trying to get British authorities to agree to a population transfer and aid it. Though then they were talking of a "humane" population transfer. Building new villages in Jordan for example for Palestinians. Compulsion if Palestinians did not want to move was a tricky subject then. It was to be an organised removal of Palestinians.

A tiny minority opposed relocation on moral grounds but overall majority supported idea of population transfer. It was how it was to be done and at what speed.

British as usual with anything relating to the Mandate prevaricated over this. Not actually against transfer but did not want to be seen to support compulsion.

From its early days the mainstream majority of Zionism did not want a Arab population within its borders. If any stayed then it had to be kept to a small minority.

 

[teqniq]

Pretty obviously another deliberately targeted killing:

 

[agricola]

Pretty obviously another deliberately targeted killing:

View attachment 407408

There really needs to be a boycott by international journalists of the Israeli government - no interviews, no attending press conferences.

As you say there is blatantly deliberate targeting of journalists in general and that man's family in particular. It must not be allowed to stand.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Spoke to my friend this morning. His photojournalists have now left Gaza as the situation is impossible, just one remains on the border at Rafah. The situation he says is unprecedented - the weather has turned, it’s pissing down & cold, thousands have no tents to shelter, no drinking water & starvation is really taking a hold.

ffs

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There really needs to be a boycott by international journalists of the Israeli government - no interviews, no attending press conferences.

As you say there is blatantly deliberate targeting of journalists in general and that man's family in particular. It must not be allowed to stand.

Everything they say is a lie anyway. Why would you interview a proven liar?

 

[ska invita]

Northern Gaza utterly demolished in three months by their own count, southern Gaza not far behind.... So what else takes a year other than starving out the survivors

 

[Gramsci]

Watched this documentary. It does a history of the settlement movement on the West Bank.

Started after 67. At first government authorities opposed the settlers. It took a long while before they were accepted by government.

This surprised me. There was a time when these people were the far right religious fringe.

At the beginning Israeli governments were advised it was against Geneva convention to build settlements on occupied land.

The first settlers were very religious. Justifying it on religious grounds.

It was only later with the election of right government in Israel that settlement building got really going.

The composition of settlers changed. Some came due to cheaper house prices. Russians came. Only 20 percent of the settlers now are religious hard liners.

Rest as doc says do not necessarily believe ideologically in Greater Israel. But now are economically invested in keeping the land now they have a good lifestyle on it. Government has built roads etc. Very good infrastructure.

Other part of doc shows that settlement building is way of making Palestinian state unviable. Governments been told to stop it by US and havent.

Bottom line is that settlements are now the "facts on the ground" To numerous and to many Israelis from now a cross section of Israeli society to make it feasible to move them to make a two state solution. Its not just the hardline religious

Pretty amazing footage going back years and interviews with the original settlers and younger ones.

 

[Pickman's model]

Watched this documentary. It does a history of the settlement movement on the West Bank.

Started after 67. At first government authorities opposed the settlers. It took a long while before they were accepted by government.

This surprised me. There was a time when these people were the far right religious fringe.

At the beginning Israeli governments were advised it was against Geneva convention to build settlements on occupied land.

The first settlers were very religious. Justifying it on religious grounds.

It was only later with the election of right government in Israel that settlement building got really going.

The composition of settlers changed. Some came due to cheaper house prices. Russians came. Only 20 percent of the settlers now are religious hard liners.

Rest as doc says do not necessarily believe ideologically in Greater Israel. But now are economically invested in keeping the land now they have a good lifestyle on it. Government has built roads etc. Very good infrastructure.

Other part of doc shows that settlement building is way of making Palestinian state unviable. Governments been told to stop it by US and havent.

Bottom line is that settlements are now the "facts on the ground" To numerous and to many Israelis from now a cross section of Israeli society to make it feasible to move them to make a two state solution. Its not just the hardline religious

Pretty amazing footage going back years and interviews with the original settlers and younger ones.

How many French left Algeria? Of course they can move or be moved - sure we'd all prefer they left peacefully, perhaps being given grants by the zionist government. If there's going to be any sort of settlement, as it were, the settlers will have to move be it a one or two state solution

 

[teqniq]

Not heard of this guy before but I think it's pretty brave/principled of him:

Israeli far-left lawmaker joins Gaza genocide lawsuit at ICJ

Several MKs have condemned his actions, including MK Sharon Nir of Yisrael Beiteinu, who suggested he resign from the Knesset.

www.jpost.com

 

[Knotted]

Israeli war cabinet descends into chaos.



There's also a report that Netanyahu wants his ministers to take polygraph tests in meetings because of the leaks.

It seems to have kicked off between the military top brass and the far right National Unity Party over an investigation into the army's conduct on 7th October.

 

[Mezzer]

Of course Netanyahu doesn't want an investigation into the army's conduct on 7th October. The protracted 'war' is largely a distraction from that and other related matters.

 

[Pickman's model]

Israeli war cabinet descends into chaos.



There's also a report that Netanyahu wants his ministers to take polygraph tests in meetings because of the leaks.

It seems to have kicked off between the military top brass and the far right National Unity Party over an investigation into the army's conduct on 7th October.

brings to mind the famous bit from dr strangelove about no fighting in the war room

 

[ska invita]

I wonder how much truth there is in this:

Good piece on this here

How apartheid history shaped South Africa’s genocide case against Israel

Jewish groups have accused the ANC of antisemitism, but ICJ case stems from party’s longstanding support for Palestinians

www.theguardian.com

 

[Knotted]

So they've killed a top Hizbollah commander and Netanyahu plus Yoav Gallant are making noises about the northern front. So a wider escalation is now on the cards.

I'm thinking that they have failed to achieve objectives in Gaza but cannot be seen to fail so a broader conflict is now the way forward for them.

 

[Idris2002]

How many French left Algeria? Of course they can move or be moved - sure we'd all prefer they left peacefully, perhaps being given grants by the zionist government. If there's going to be any sort of settlement, as it were, the settlers will have to move be it a one or two state solution

Only one-fifth of the pieds-noir were of French origin - the rest were Italian, Spanish, Portuguese and Greek, IIRC. I think this made it a lot easier for De Gaulle to pull his bait-and-switch move on them.

But you're right about the settlers having to move, come what may (unless the genocide is actually successful, that is).

 

[Flavour]

I'm thinking that they have failed to achieve objectives in Gaza but cannot be seen to fail so a broader conflict is now the way forward for them.

What objectives do you think they have failed to achieve?

 

[Pickman's model]

What objectives do you think they have failed to achieve?

the complete extirpation of the palestinian population but i can see they're working on that

 

[8ball]

So they've killed a top Hizbollah commander and Netanyahu plus Yoav Gallant are making noises about the northern front. So a wider escalation is now on the cards.

I'm thinking that they have failed to achieve objectives in Gaza but cannot be seen to fail so a broader conflict is now the way forward for them.

You mean their initial stated objective of eliminating Hamas?

 

[Aladdin]

They're not even attempting to hide their landgrabbing, genocidal mania. They want rid of UNRWA

 

[Knotted]

What objectives do you think they have failed to achieve?

The elimination of Hamas. I think whatever their ultimate intentions, the failure to achieve their stated aim makes the IDF look ineffective. Capable of destruction of civilian life/infrastructure but not effective against a guerrilla organisation. See also the 2006 Lebanon war.

 

[Aladdin]

There is dissent in Israel. Interesting comments from Eran Etzion former deputy head of National Security Council

 

[Larry O'Hara]

You forgot to put the phrase, 'according to the Hamas-run health ministry' in there, as is apparently required by law.

Yes that really grates with me, no matter how many times I hear it.

 

[Pickman's model]

The elimination of Hamas. I think whatever their ultimate intentions, the failure to achieve their stated aim makes the IDF look ineffective. Capable of destruction of civilian life/infrastructure but not effective against a guerrilla organisation. See also the 2006 Lebanon war.

Tbh they've laid out a great length of rope for themselves, both as a government and a country. Seems to me almost certain there's going to be a scrap with hezbollah, while as you say they've not eliminated hamas even in northern gaza. Even if the zionists stop now and declare victory their military campaign has been a strategic failure (as you point out it always would be) and they've done incalculable harm to the ze's reputation and image. If they fight hezbollah I doubt they'll do better than they did in 2006. So the yanks might lend a hand and then who knows where this might end

 

[teqniq]

Tbh they've laid out a great length of rope for themselves, both as a government and a country. Seems to me almost certain there's going to be a scrap with hezbollah, while as you say they've not eliminated hamas even in northern gaza. Even if the zionists stop now and declare victory their military campaign has been a strategic failure (as you point out it always would be) and they've done incalculable harm to the ze's reputation and image. If they fight hezbollah I doubt they'll do better than they did in 2006. So the yanks might lend a hand and then who knows where this might end

One can hope that it all comes apart at the seams with internal divisions as depicted by Knotted and Aladdin before it kicks off with Hezbollah. It's looking like it might do.

 

[Knotted]

Tbh they've laid out a great length of rope for themselves, both as a government and a country. Seems to me almost certain there's going to be a scrap with hezbollah, while as you say they've not eliminated hamas even in northern gaza. Even if the zionists stop now and declare victory their military campaign has been a strategic failure (as you point out it always would be) and they've done incalculable harm to the ze's reputation and image. If they fight hezbollah I doubt they'll do better than they did in 2006. So the yanks might lend a hand and then who knows where this might end

Yes I was thinking the strategy might be to drag the Americans into it.