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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

Rob Ray said:
I think there's a self-serving tendency within the actions of the Israeli State and its allies particularly to try and erase the history of such dissenting opinions, because it's extremely inconvenient for their wider pitch.
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the crushing of alternative and thereby fostering extremism is the defining mode of the last century of global history
 
JimW said:
Think it's contrasted with the Anglo-Normans and subsequent where it was more just swapping the aristocracy (some of whom famously went native), but not too well read on the history.
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I think the extent to which the Normans became Gaelicised tends to be exaggerated - they retained English common law throughout their time as a distinct community in Ireland, for example. By Elizabeth's time they were known as the "Old English", as distinct from the New English Queen Liz was sending over. The influx of the New English meant strong and violent pressure on both Gaelic and Old English communities (and on their land), and those two groups soon found themselves increasingly, and by necessity, in political and military alliance.

By 1689, when James II was raising his army in Ireland, his Old English supporters convened the Patriot Parliament, which (among other things) passed laws which would have restored the land rights of both the Old English and the Gaelic communities (even though there was no direct Gaelic representation in that parliament). But then James lost the battle of the Boyne in the following year, and the rest is literally history.

Following this decisive defeat, the Gaelic and Old English communities merged into a single population that developed the "Irish Catholic" identity that we know today. (Very weirdly, Old English or Norman names are more common among Fine Gael TDs, while Gaelic surnames are more prevalent among Fianna Fail parliamentarians - but there's no sign that this was deliberate, however).

This sounds like a derail, I know, but I think it's relevant because even though everyone is talking about decolonisation, coloniality, anti-colonialism, etc., there's an awful tendency to assume that all colonial histories are basically the same, and show the same basic patterns of conquest and rule, with the same basic results for rulers and ruled. This is a mistake - and in the case of what's happening in the former Palestine Mandate (a mandate, remember not a dominion, or protectorate, or crown colony, etc. - the difference is not trivial) I think it might be a fatal mistake.
 
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Larry O'Hara said:
Very high likelihood it is: Israel wanting to drag Iran into the war perhaps…or US hawks with same aims. Even if it is a proxy dissident group same applies…
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At this point it could be anyone, though the pattern of escalation since October 7th has been almost exclusively actions taken by Israel.
 
Aladdin said:
They sound very confident that they will be vindicated.
I wonder if Netanyahu will go? He probably will... offer himself up for judgement.
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I doubt that the State of Israel will participate in any hearing of the Inernational Criminal Court. It does not recognise it.
 
Idris2002 said:
I think the extent to which the Normans became Gaelicised tends to be exaggerated - they retained English common law throughout their time as a distinct community in Ireland, for example. By Elizabeth's time they were known as the "Old English", as distinct from the New English Queen Liz was sending over. The influx of the New English meant strong and violent pressure on both Gaelic and Old English communities (and on their land), and those two groups soon found themselves increasingly, and by necessity, in political and military alliance.

By 1689, when James II was raising his army in Ireland, his Old English supporters convened the Patriot Parliament, which (among other things) passed laws which would have restored the land rights of both the Old English and the Gaelic communities (even though there was no direct Gaelic representation in that parliament). But then James lost the battle of the Boyne in the following year, and the rest is literally history.

Following this decisive defeat, the Gaelic and Old English communities merged into a single population that developed the "Irish Catholic" identity that we know today. (Very weirdly, Old English or Norman names are more common among Fine Gael TDs, while Gaelic surnames are more prevalent among Fianna Fail parliamentarians - but there's no sign that this was deliberate, however).

This sounds like a derail, I know, but I think it's relevant because even though everyone is talking about decolonisation, coloniality, anti-colonialism, etc., there's an awful tendency to assume that all colonial histories are basically the same, and show the same basic patterns of conquest and rule, with the same basic results for rulers and ruled. This is a mistake - and in the case of what's happening in the former Palestine Mandate (a mandate, remember not a dominion, or protectorate, or crown colony, etc. - the difference is not trivial) I think it might be a fatal mistake.
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At a guess, I would imagine that there are more Norman names among Fine Gael TDs because it was more presentative of landowners, but I am very ignorant of these things. Thank you for your post, which is very informative
 
agricola said:
The planned ones after WW2? That would be more like it, but even they were going to have a class of uneducated non-Aryans to work the land (with everyone else being killed off by one means or another).
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The Genocide of the forties was preceded by that in Namibia at the turn of the century when the German Empire sought to annihilate the Herero population.

The Herero and Namaqua Genocide – The Holocaust Explained: Designed for schools

www.theholocaustexplained.org www.theholocaustexplained.org

As to the deportation of entire populations seen as hostile to the regime that happened in the USSR in the 1940s millions of people moved thousands of miles with a huge percentage of those victimised dying.

The Soviet Massive Deportations - A Chronology | Sciences Po Violence de masse et Résistance - Réseau de recherche

1934: Josef Stalin, who had ruled the USSR with an iron hand since the end of the 1920s, launched the Great Purge in January 1934 to consolidate his power.
www.sciencespo.fr www.sciencespo.fr
 
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Idris2002 said:
This sounds like a derail, I know, but I think it's relevant because even though everyone is talking about decolonisation, coloniality, anti-colonialism, etc., there's an awful tendency to assume that all colonial histories are basically the same, and show the same basic patterns of conquest and rule, with the same basic results for rulers and ruled. This is a mistake - and in the case of what's happening in the former Palestine Mandate (a mandate, remember not a dominion, or protectorate, or crown colony, etc. - the difference is not trivial) I think it might be a fatal mistake.
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I do not see this. Ilan Pappe has said for example settler colonialism is a wide subject to discuss.

From what I gather from my reading the kind of history that an Israeli like Pappe was taught when growing up in Israel was that Zionists defeated British Imperialism. That the struggle to get an Israeli state was an anti colonial struggle against the British Empire.

If "everyone" is talking about coloniality this is not one of those recent fads in history.

I also disagree therefore on the assumption that there is this "awful tendency" to see colonial histories as all the same.

Ilan Pappe - an Israeli Jew- put forward a different historical argument about colonialism in opposition to the one he was taught.

Arguments about colonialism aren't new.


On the Mandate. Well technically it was not part of Empire. But French and British stitched up the aspirations of peoples in middle east that they would get self determination after WW1.

At that time in history British Empire couldn't just take over. People like Churchill for example, as I've posted, regarded the Mandate as long term. Having a Mandate was in eyes of French and British the new updated version of Imperial control. Influence over a strategic area rather than part of an official empire so to speak.
 
PTK said:
I doubt that the State of Israel will participate in any hearing of the Inernational Criminal Court. It does not recognise it.
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Eylon Levi said they will appear before the International Court of Justice. You might not have instagram..here's a few screenshots of his speech.

Screenshot_20240103_212055_Instagram.jpgScreenshot_20240103_212230_Instagram.jpgScreenshot_20240103_212231_Instagram.jpg
Edited as I had the ICC not ICJ
 
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British police are gathering evidence of possible war crimes in the Gaza Strip. Below is an edited version of an article from the Daily Telegraph (with most of the irrelevant parts excised)
=
Scotland Yard counter-terrorism police have launched an appeal for witnesses travelling through British airports to report allegations of war crimes and crimes against humanity.
[. . .]
The inquiry is being conducted by the war crimes team within the force, supporting a long-running investigation into Israel by the International Criminal Court (ICC), based in the Hague. It will also examine events since the Hamas attacks of Oct 7 and investigate allegations of war crimes by Palestinian factions.
[. . .]
Scotland Yard said British police had a “responsibility to support” the ICC and that with “higher volumes” of British nationals returning to the UK since the Israel-Hamas war broke out, it anticipated a greater number of potential witnesses and victims of war crimes arriving from the region.
[. . . ]
Posters produced by counter-terror police have been seen at Heathrow and are understood to have been displayed at several other airports.

They are headlined “Travellers who have been in Israel/Palestinian Territories” and add below: “If you have been in Israel/Palestinian Territories and have witnessed or been a victim of terrorism, war crimes or crimes against humanity, then you can report this to the UK police.”

The poster, written in Arabic and Hebrew as well as English, says: “UK policing is supporting the work of the International Criminal Court, which is investigating alleged war crimes in Israel and Palestine from June 2014 onwards.

“Any evidence gathered may be shared with the ICC in support of their investigation.”

On Wednesday night, Scotland Yard confirmed that its war crimes team had received more than 40 referrals “in recent weeks”, including from individuals returning from the region.

It is thought the vast majority are allegations of war crimes against Israel. Any relevant information is then passed to the ICC.

Israel, among other countries, is not signed up to the ICC and does not recognise its jurisdiction. It is conducting its own investigation into the Oct 7 massacre by Hamas.
[. . .]
Jonathan Turner, the chief executive of UK Lawyers for Israel, said: “These notices are inconsistent with the position expressed by prime minister Boris Johnson in April 2021 that the UK does not accept that the International Criminal Court has jurisdiction… In our view, he was right.”

Lord Austin, a former Labour minister and a member of Labour Friends of Israel, said: “Why on earth are the police getting involved in this instead of solving crimes in London when the UK’s policy is to support Israel in defending itself against the Hamas terrorists responsible for the appalling atrocities on Oct 7?”

Fatou Bensouda, the ICC’s then chief prosecutor, announced in December 2019 that she believed war crimes were being committed in both the West Bank and Gaza after being initially petitioned by the Palestinian Authority, sparked by incidents during the conflict in 2014.

In December, Karim Khan KC, the ICC’s current chief prosecutor, visited the region following the Oct 7 massacre by Hamas, in which 1,200 civilians were killed. On his visit, Mr Khan condemned the attack on Israel as “one of the most serious international crimes” but also warned Israel that its response needed to be proportionate to comply with international law. [. . . ]

A spokesman for the Met Police said the force had a duty to assist the ICC. It also said officers were also gathering evidence relating to the Oct 7 attacks, given that British nationals had been victims of them.

In a statement, the force said: “As the UK’s investigative authority for war crimes, counter-terrorism policing – through the Met’s war crimes team – has a responsibility to support ICC investigations. The ICC opened an investigation in 2019 into alleged war crimes in Israel and Palestine.”

The spokesman added that “under the terms of the 1998 Rome Statute, our war crimes team is obliged to support any investigations opened by the ICC that could involve British subjects” and said the posters were put up to meet that obligation.

“With higher volumes of British nationals and UK-based individuals currently returning from Israel, Gaza and nearby countries, we anticipate there may be people who have evidence or relevant information to the ICC investigation,” said the spokesman. “We are therefore signposting people to reporting routes where appropriate.

“The Met’s Counter-Terrorism Command also continues to gather direct information and evidence relating to the terrorist attack in Israel on Oct 7 in support of the UK coronial investigations into British nationals who were killed during those attacks.

“At this time, there is no UK-based investigation by the war crimes team linked to the current events in the Middle East.”

The Met said it was “working round the clock” to identify suspected “terrorism offending” after setting up a task force to investigate potential crimes committed online and during protests.

In total, about 150 cases are being investigated. About 30 investigations are linked directly to alleged offences committed during London protests. [. . .]
==
 
"Article IX of the Genocide Convention allows any state party to the convention to bring a case against another to the ICJ, even if it doesn’t have any direct link to the conflict in question. Last year, the court ruled that the Gambia could bring a genocide claim against Myanmar. The court also ruled in a case between Croatia and Serbia that depriving a people of food, shelter, medical care and other means of subsistence constitutes genocidal acts."
[. . .]
"The international criminal court (ICC) is already investigating possible war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by both Hamas and Israel. While the ICC can prosecute individuals, the ICJ is an arena for adjudicating conflicts between states."

www.theguardian.com

South Africa launches case at UN court accusing Israel of genocide

Nation asks international court of justice to issue provisional measures ordering ceasefire; Israel describes case as ‘blood libel’
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
Gramsci said:
I do not see this. Ilan Pappe has said for example settler colonialism is a wide subject to discuss.

From what I gather from my reading the kind of history that an Israeli like Pappe was taught when growing up in Israel was that Zionists defeated British Imperialism. That the struggle to get an Israeli state was an anti colonial struggle against the British Empire.

If "everyone" is talking about coloniality this is not one of those recent fads in history.

I also disagree therefore on the assumption that there is this "awful tendency" to see colonial histories as all the same.

Ilan Pappe - an Israeli Jew- put forward a different historical argument about colonialism in opposition to the one he was taught.

Arguments about colonialism aren't new.


On the Mandate. Well technically it was not part of Empire. But French and British stitched up the aspirations of peoples in middle east that they would get self determination after WW1.

At that time in history British Empire couldn't just take over. People like Churchill for example, as I've posted, regarded the Mandate as long term. Having a Mandate was in eyes of French and British the new updated version of Imperial control. Influence over a strategic area rather than part of an official empire so to speak.
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The claim that the Zionist militias in Palestine were engaged in an anti-colonial struggle against the UK is not unlike the claim that the Boers were engaged in an anti-colonial struggle against the UK in South Africa in the Boer Wars.
 
PTK said:
Thanks for the correction. I did not realise that it was the ICJ. I did not realise that the ICJ had jurisdiction in such cases.
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Only because Israel is a signatory to the ICJ, they are not however a signatory to the ICC and, as you have observed do not recognise it's jurisdiction.
 
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PTK said:
The claim that the Zionist militias in Palestine were engaged in an anti-colonial struggle against the UK is not unlike the claim that the Boers were engaged in an anti-colonial struggle against the UK in South Africa in the Boer Wars.
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Or the war for independence in 1776.
 
PTK said:
The claim that the Zionist militias in Palestine were engaged in an anti-colonial struggle against the UK is not unlike the claim that the Boers were engaged in an anti-colonial struggle against the UK in South Africa in the Boer Wars.
Click to expand...

Been reading of the 1930s and at the time Zionists were talking to British government officials about idea of transferring Arab population to Transjordan to facilitate, as they put it, Jewish colonisation. There were organisations like the Jewish Colonisation Association set up to purchase land.

Back then the word Colonisation was more respectable word to use. The transferring of Arab population wasn't treated as abhorrent as it would now.

This was mainstream Zionist view then. That some kind of organised population transfer could take place. A humane in their eyes solution. More carrot than stick to get Arabs out the way.

So the idea that Zionism was about fighting British imperialism only came much later.

In there own words Zionists were settler colonialists. Even if there relationship with British imperialism was complicated.
 
www.theguardian.com

Israel and its allies must face facts: peace talks are the only way forward, and they will have to include Hamas | Peter Hain

My experience tells me this: tough negotiation will achieve what bombs cannot, says Peter Hain, former UK Middle East minister and Northern Ireland secretary of state
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

Peter Hain talks a lot of sense here.
I write this from Cape Town where decent South Africans of all races and creeds are contemptuous of what they see as profound double standards by global north leaders – wanting backing for Ukrainian self-determination, but being complicit in the denial of Palestinian self-determination and culpable in the horror in Gaza. The geopolitical breach with the global south is deepening, and will cost Washington, London and Brussels dearly in an increasingly turbulent world.
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As for the notion, peddled by leaders of the global north, that only negotiations with a discredited Palestinian Authority leadership in the West Bank can be countenanced – that won’t work either. Global north governments have a history of trying and failing to promote their “favoured” candidates on peoples demanding self-determination to choose their own representatives. Hamas will have to be included in some way.
Click to expand...
 
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Gramsci said:
In there own words Zionists were settler colonialists. Even if there relationship with British imperialism was complicated.
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The complication being that they trounced the British in a war of national liberation in the late 40's
 
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