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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

Again, I think this would come under 'collateral damage'. Which is a hateful expression but it's what we have.
That is not 'collateral damage'. It is entirely deliberate. The mother and daughter killed in the grounds of the church I posted about were later claimed by the IDF to be Hamas spotters, presumably in an attempt to cover their own arses.

Here is another example:
1704212878845.png
No-one can reasonably claim firing a tank shell into a hospital resulting in the death of a 12 year old girl is 'collateral damage'.
 
I think you can call intentional damage and murder 'collateral'. It doesn't have to actually be accidental. The point is, it's not the few hundred Christian Palestinians that Israel wants rid of, it's the millions of Muslim ones. The Christian ones are just on the wrong side, by choosing to live among wronguns. And naturally any harm that comes to them is on (islamic organization) Hamas etc
Is this the Israeli view ? Or yours?
 
I think you can call intentional damage and murder 'collateral'. It doesn't have to actually be accidental. The point is, it's not the few hundred Christian Palestinians that Israel wants rid of, it's the millions of Muslim ones. The Christian ones are just on the wrong side, by choosing to live among wronguns. And naturally any harm that comes to them is on (Islamic organization) Hamas etc
I know what you are saying but, as thuggery against Christians and the disgraceful acquisition by underhand means of that Church in Jerusalem show, they want Christians gone too. Snipers are a powerful incentive to encourage departure. The rationalisation used publicly may well be that you describe but actions speak louder than words…
 
That is not 'collateral damage'. It is entirely deliberate. The mother and daughter killed in the grounds of the church I posted about were later claimed by the IDF to be Hamas spotters, presumably in an attempt to cover their own arses.

Here is another example:
View attachment 406844
No-one can reasonably claim firing a tank shell into a hospital resulting in the death of a 12 year old girl is 'collateral damage.

I agree, but I always understood collateral damage to be the death and destruction caused in pursuing an unrelated objective. Not being accidental, but being incidental to the stated objective IYSWIM. Anyway if this is a misunderstanding of the term fair enough.

Is this the Israeli view ? Or yours?
It's definitely not my view.
 
Did you know that the Black and Tans were also sent to Palestine?

Oh and technically in 1920 when the Black & Tans arrived in Ireland the country was still british with a small b. As the agreement creating the Dominion called the Irish Free State wasnt signed off until 1922,
It all depends whose 'technically' you're talking about. You could, for example, say that the proclamation of the republic in Easter 1916 technically overrode any claim by the British state.
 
It all depends whose 'technically' you're talking about. You could, for example, say that the proclamation of the republic in Easter 1916 technically overrode any claim by the British state.
Sure.....

The point I was making was that the Brits were happy to kill their own subjects.
 


Its like they've studied British colonialism.
Divide and conquer / control. Even when it comes to aid.
Splitting the Palestinians into tribes who will be responsible for distributing the aid to their own tribe.

Also..just saw this.

Screenshot_20240102_165502_Instagram.jpgScreenshot_20240102_165510_Instagram.jpg
 
From 9 minutes onwards, she outlines perhaps an idealistic vision of what it means to be Palestinian, but idealistic or not, it is a good vision and it is a Palestinian vision. It also contains an explicit declaration of solidarity with Jews.
Im mot sure how much religion played a role.
Early Zionists were mainly secular. In Zionist thinking that Israel historically a Jewish homeland so they have a right to it- but its not just about religion.
sure but im not talking about early zionists or lets-live-together-palestinians, im talking about those who today are attacking armenian christians and carrying out arab/muslim ethnic cleansing
 
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Hamas are at the opposite end of the spectrum from the lets-live-together Palestinians like those who speak at the UN. This is why I say that they have hijacked the resistance movement. This piece is from 2010, but it outlines many of the measures Hamas has implemented since taking power. It isn't interested in plurality. Whatever its leaders may insist, their actions say otherwise.

Under a barbaric and inhumane siege, which constitutes a crime against humanity to which all of the world powers are party, Hamas is exacerbating the people's suffering by investigating casual meetings [between friends] and attempting to change 100-year-old habits. [Customs of] marriage, dating, and gender-mixing are a matter of social, circumstantial, and status-related conventions, in which the law should not interfere. When married or engaged couples are forced to carry marriage licenses in their pockets, out of fear that some armed [policeman] might burst in on one of their dates and inquire into [the nature of] their relationship, it is a frightening deterioration in the Palestinians' values and lifestyle, which certainly did not exist [previously]. When a [policeman on a] motorcycle pursues a family car in which a woman is sitting beside a man whose arm is resting on the back of her seat, arrests [the family] and takes them to the police [station] – it is a stupid patrol [that is detrimental] to people's lives. When a brother and sister are arrested on their way home at night because they do not have identification cards on them to prove 'their legitimate relationship,' it is expressly Taliban-like behavior.

"We are talking about a long series of deeds, from the indirect coercion of female students to wear a hijab (without administrative memos or written orders), to the persecution [of girls] in restaurants and cafes, to the ban on smoking hookahs and 'searches' for immoral pictures on private computers.

MEMRI - The Middle East Media Research Institute
 
Absolutely. State-enforced collectivism (whether we call that Communism or something else) is certainly an enemy of capitalism and has been for a while. Maybe it still is in some circles, but actually in those circles it's mainly considered to have failed by c.1990 so it's not really anybody's great enemy any more. Communism had its century as A Great Satan - Islam on the other hand has been The Great Satan for centuries, since long before Communism came along. Palestinians being mainly Muslim is IMO absolutely key to everything that's happened there since 1917 and even before. They simply don't count / need to fuck off / descendants of the infidels who stole the Holy Land so they are.

In any case this is a pretty standard far-right view as I'm sure you recognise ... the Jews can fuck off to Israel and they can give the Muslims a spanking, win/win.
How would you explain the genocide of the native American population in the USA?
 
Hamas are at the opposite end of the spectrum from the lets-live-together Palestinians like those who speak at the UN. This is why I say that they have hijacked the resistance movement. This piece is from 2010, but it outlines many of the measures Hamas has implemented since taking power. It isn't interested in plurality. Whatever its leaders may insist, their actions say otherwise.



MEMRI - The Middle East Media Research Institute
You are I suppose aware of the changes in hamas' charter in 2017
 
Did you know that the Black and Tans were also sent to Palestine?

Oh and technically in 1920 when the Black & Tans arrived in Ireland the country was still british with a small b. As the agreement creating the Dominion called the Irish Free State wasnt signed off until 1922,
Next you'll be telling us that the Palestinians were British! You have completely missed my point.
 
You didn't notice hamas significantly changed their charter in 2017 then
How did that affect the situation on the ground? Are women no longer harassed into wearing the hijab, for example?

The point here is to look at what Hamas are doing, not to listen to what they say. There is a very clear mismatch between the two.
 
Hamas are at the opposite end of the spectrum from the lets-live-together Palestinians like those who speak at the UN. This is why I say that they have hijacked the resistance movement. This piece is from 2010, but it outlines many of the measures Hamas has implemented since taking power. It isn't interested in plurality. Whatever its leaders may insist, their actions say otherwise.



MEMRI - The Middle East Media Research Institute

By the same token I think the Israeli notion that different Palestinian tribes would take over distribution of aid to their own, could potentially lead to civil war between those tribes and whatever is left of Hamas... who will definitely want all control.


Next you'll be telling us that the Palestinians were British! You have completely missed my point.
Your point was all "Ifs"
You wrote:
If the Irish were British the Black and Tans would not have been sent there, and there would have been no Bloody Sunday. If the Palestinians were Jewish, they would not be Palestinians.
I merely pointed out the error as regards timing...and that technically the Irish were actually still under British rule when the Black and Tans were brought in in 1920.
 
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How did that affect the situation on the ground?

The point here is to look at what Hamas are doing, not to listen to what they say. There is a very clear mismatch between the two.
I'm looking at what you're doing and noting the aged sources on which you rely. Your suggestion everything remains the same as it was 13 years ago needs at the very least substantiation
 
It all depends whose 'technically' you're talking about. You could, for example, say that the proclamation of the republic in Easter 1916 technically overrode any claim by the British state.
As indeed did the 85% of the vote obtained by Sinn Fein in the 1918 Election: the last all-Ireland one….
 
sure but im not talking about early zionists or lets-live-together-palestinians, im talking about those who today are attacking armenian christians and carrying out arab/muslim ethnic cleansing

I think its important to look at Israel / Zionist history.

West Bank today is not under Hamas control. The ( bits) of it that are under Palestinian control are run by secular Fatah. This has not stopped settler attacks on farmers. Or IDF rounding up people for detention.

Recently a settler tried to argue that the farmer his group of settler killed was Hamas. This was laughable. Even Israeli press didnt take that up. He was unarmed farmer tending his olive trees.

Trying to shoe horn everything into the clash of religions is missing the point of Zionism.

Zionism is about creating an ethno nationalist state. In this case for Jews. Its now also about defending that ethno nationalist state against those expelled who want their land back. Its a colonising political project that comes from an European tradition of going to non European parts of world and taking them over.

Id say in order of reasons religion comes second. Land comes first. Ethnic cleansing comes first. Back in early days religion was not trotted out as an excuse. These Arabs being non Europeans was enough justification. The casual racism of Zionists was not peculiar to them at that time.

Id say Likud roots are in Revisionist Zionism which was upfront about getting Arab population out. ( and was like Labour Zionism secular)What is happening in Gaza is not primarily about religion. Its about for once and for all dealing with the Palestinian problem.

And Palestinians have always being regarded as a problem. It turned out this was not an empty land for a people without a land. Nor was possible to get a "transfer" of Arab population. Only way to do it was by force.

In that sense their is a continuity in Zionist thinking. Even if the different wings do not always agree. The general trajectory has been the same.

Back in early days David Ben Gurion agreed that certain very religious Jews should be allowed not to serve in IDF. At that time they were small minority. I think it could be argued that Israeli society has changed over the decades and the more religious element have increased.
 
Suppose what Im saying Hamas or no Hamas given the brutal occupation/ memory of Nakba / bombing of Gaza which must go down in Palestinian history as second to Nakba I would not be surprised at further acts of terrorism in the future directed at Israel. This need no be pushed by Islam but by brutal suppression of Palestinians first and foremost. Religion comes second to the occupation, loss of land and ongoing ethnic cleansing since 48
 
This seems to me a very plausible explanation for what happened in Beirut today:
<twitter>
As well as killing the Hamas official Saleh al-Arouri in Beirut

Israeli army launches attacks on targets in Syria and Lebanon
2 Jan 2024
As war in Gaza rages, Israel is continuing its campaign against Syrian military and Hezbollah targets, sparking fears of regional spillover
In (25th) December, an Israeli air raid outside Damascus killed Razi Moussavi, a senior adviser in Iran’s Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC) responsible for coordinating the military alliance between Syria and Iran.

Reports from Iran’s news agency INRA said that Mousavi had been part of an entourage accompanying IRGC General Qassem Soleimani at Baghdad airport when he was killed by a US drone attack almost exactly four years ago.
 

This summary of Btselem view of how Israeli democracy works. Effectively it controls whole of the Palestine area. Including Gaza and West Bank.

Yes those in West Bank and Gaza don't have a vote for Knesset.

Palestinian government in Gaza and West Bank is very limited.

Those Palestinians who are Israeli citizens have a vote but their political ability to act is curtailed. They cant question this being a Jewish State.

So in view of Btselem, and I agree with this , this is an apartheid state.

The Balad party- set up to change Israel to a normal democratic state found its mild proposals ruled out of order. A state where all are equal isn't a Jewish State:

In June 2018, the Balad party submitted a bill titled Basic Law: A Country of All Its Citizens while the Knesset was debating a bill titled Basic Law: Israel – the Nation State of the Jewish People. Balad’s bill was intended to enshrine “the principle of equal citizenship for all citizens, while recognizing the existence and rights of both national groups – Jewish and Arab.” In a rare move, the Knesset Presidium refused to admit the bill, thereby blocking debate on the matter in the plenum.

Though the bill was never even debated in the Knesset, submitting it clarified the breadth and scope of equality sought. Supreme Court President Esther Hayut ruled that merely proposing the bill crossed a red line and was “a significant act by Balad MKs sitting in the 20th Knesset, attempting to effect, through a bill, a political program and worldview that negate the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish state.”
 
Some Israelis must feel this is about religion too.



If you dont have instagram..
Here are relevant screenshots.
View attachment 406817View attachment 406818

for every other reason given, it is this right here that has always been the underlying motive for the iraq war.

interestingly, the al aqsa and dome were not demolished by the crusaders, though they made them into a palace for the dubbed king and horse stables.

the Christians in the holy land do a good job presenting Christ in a manger, but not so well about informing everyone present of the teachings of Christ, which would have everyone with a bug-out bag ready, especially under conditions like this, with armies all around. I for one would rather a spiritual interpretation to prevail, not the blood-and-guts that it is now certainly become.
 
Right but this story didn't begin in 1948 any more than it began on 7/10/23.

No it didn't. Such things as Balfour declaration/ middle East being carved up into Mandates run by Britain and France pre dated 48. This country does bear some responsibility for how things turned out. As Ive posted in previously.
 
It’s like they’re trying to drag a bunch of others into the fray.

Popping over the Lebanese border to attack those they don't like or more commonly getting their proxies in the country to do their dirty work is something that both the Israel and Syria have been doing for decades.
 
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