Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[littlebabyjesus]

Here is another poll done in first week on November. Face to face cross section of Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank.

This was fourth week of the war, So a lot of people had been killed or displaced.

Support for Hamas was still high:

Wartime Poll: Results of an Opinion Poll Among Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip

www.awrad.org

From the english language press release:



75% say they want a unity Palestinian government after war. I take that to mean all factions included. Including Hamas.

So do Palestinians think Hamas are the enemy of Palestinian people?

Going on this no.

PDF of the press release.

Usual caveats need to apply to polling done in such circumstances. Hamas run Gaza. Saying negative things about them may not be the wisest thing to do, whatever your real thoughts. Islamism has hijacked the liberation movement.

That said, their backs are against the wall. They're likely to know people among the Hamas fighters. They're certainly all in it together right now. Whatever anyone thinks of them, Hamas will need to be involved in any solution.

At some point, Israel is going to have to give up on its professed intention to destroy Hamas (in reality a cover for attempting to drive the Palestinians into the desert). At that point, they and others will have to start talking to them.

The way I would put this is that while it is a mistake to equate all Palestinians with Hamas, Hamas themselves are Palestinians. They have intimate links with the wider population from whose ranks they are drawn.

 

[Mezzer]

Apparently denied yesterday as soon as it was talked about on Twitter:

View attachment 406738

The caveat in that statement is 'voluntary evacuation'. It would clearly be a forced one in all but name.

 

[ska invita]

Apparently denied yesterday as soon as it was talked about on Twitter:

View attachment 406738

fair enough but he was in Israel talking to Netenyahu and that story did hit israeli press...no smoke without fire

 

[teqniq]

fair enough but he was in Israel talking to Netenyahu and that story did hit israeli press...no smoke without fire

Agreed. in any case I would not trust anything coming from Blair or his spokesperson.

In other news, it would appear that people in the Israeli judiciary are taking the proceedings presented to the ICJ by South Africa seriously:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-january-1-2024/

 

[teqniq]

Actually it would be fair to say they are flapping about the proceedings. I just saw this short thread retweeted it's by Yaron Avrahan of N12 News. I unrolled it and, as it's in Hebrew, got it translated:

First publication in edition | The frantic letter of the Chief Military Prosecutor to the Chief of Staff - and the feverish discussions in Israel following it. Follow the thread and the warnings given in the letter: >> The Chief Military Prosecutor, Maj. Gen. Yifat Tomer-Yerushalmi, issued a dramatic letter which she reviewed orally before Chief of Staff Herzi Halevi and the General Staff Forum, regarding the lawsuit that was filed in recent days against Israel at the International Court of Justice, in which South Africa accuses Israel of genocide in the Gaza Strip Gaza. >> The Haftarit tells the Chief of Staff and the IDF generals that the lawsuit filed is based on the large number of casualties in Gaza, on the widespread destruction in the Gaza Strip, and that Shimei Lev Yonit - on quotes from officers in the media and on social media regarding the nature of the intended activity in the Gaza Strip, from which the lawsuit allegedly seeks to prove Israeli intent to commit genocide. >> The dramatic warning that appears in the Facharit letter was written in this language: "The move started by South Africa increases the risks for senior officials at the political level and in the IDF." >> In recent days, this letter has led to great vigilance in Israel and feverish discussions aimed at deciding: how to proceed from here. >> It should be understood: even if such a procedure is opened, a verdict on the matter will be given in a few years. However, as part of this request, South Africa is demanding that the court in The Hague issue an interim order to Israel right now, an order that essentially orders it to immediately stop its military operations in the Strip, with an emphasis on the aerial bombardments. >> The problems in Israel concern the question of whether to participate at all in this preliminary discussion, when it is determined. One of the possibilities is to argue on the other hand that so far no claim on the issue has been brought to Israel through official political or diplomatic channels, and thus Israel can say that there is no basis for the request submitted to the tribunal. >> Today there was a discussion on the subject at the Foreign Ministry, also at the IDF, including one at the Chief of Staff, also at the Prosecutor's Office and the Military Police, with some of the discussions warning the professionals as follows: "The talks about the erasure and flattening of Gaza by irresponsible politicians were not answered with the intensity required by the official authorities in Israel - which will oblige Israel to give explanations." >> Be that as it may, further discussions on the subject will take place this week as well, to understand the timetables and the levers of influence on the process. In past cases, the court issued orders very quickly. The hope in Israel is to exert legal and political influence so that this does not happen this time.

 

[Gramsci]

Usual caveats need to apply to polling done in such circumstances. Hamas run Gaza. Saying negative things about them may not be the wisest thing to do, whatever your real thoughts. Islamism has hijacked the liberation movement.

That said, their backs are against the wall. They're likely to know people among the Hamas fighters. They're certainly all in it together right now. Whatever anyone thinks of them, Hamas will need to be involved in any solution.

At some point, Israel is going to have to give up on its professed intention to destroy Hamas (in reality a cover for attempting to drive the Palestinians into the desert). At that point, they and others will have to start talking to them.

The way I would put this is that while it is a mistake to equate all Palestinians with Hamas, Hamas themselves are Palestinians. They have intimate links with the wider population from whose ranks they are drawn.

58.5% of the people polled came from the West Bank which is controlled by Fatah.

In that case the caveat applies to those answering in West Bank. Its clear from poll findings that living in Fatah controlled area did not stop people giving critical answers. Given that the poll still shows support for Hamas and other groups.

I would not agree with using the word hijacked in relation to Hamas. Hamas were elected. International community and Israel did not expect or like the result of that election. Attempt at planning overthrow of elected Hamas by Fatah partially failed with Fatah ending up controlling West Bank and Hamas controlling Gaza

I posted up findings of another poll that asked about support for different leaders and parties. A complicated picture if election took place in West Bank and Gaza. Fatah and Hamas would both get good number elected. Depending on who stood a non Islamist would get elected as President -Marwan Barghouti- secular leader liked by all sides. If the discredited Abbas stood Hamas would get elected.

I don't think anyone is equating Hamas with all Palestinians. However a significant percentage of Palestinians do support Hamas.

What is not done in these polls is to ask why.

The question is whether Hamas leadership will be allowed by International western community to take part in talks. It does not look like it. ( caveat is that talks have taken place between both sides over hostages. So its not that no talks are taking place. Its that they are not public official talks.)

One of the thing about the polls is that it looks to me that the Palestinian people want a unity government.

However what the Palestinian people want has never really been in the forefront. Its assumed what they should want.

Not having a go at you here but when I hear things like Hamas should have no place in future of Gaza / West Bank that is never said about the present leaders of Israel who have been ordering the bombing of Gaza.

If there is to be a long term peace process/ ceasefire. then the Palestinian people should be asked who they want to represent them. And the international community/ Israel should accept that and not undermine any results they don't like.

Agree Israel is not achieving its aim of destroying Hamas armed wing. Months in with all the weapons they have Israel is still losing soldiers and Hamas are still a fighting force.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Many resistance movements across the world are Islamist in nature.

I find that massively depressing.

And I use the term hijacked because that's what I think is going on here. More secular resistance is pushed to one side, and it is the nature of islamism not to allow for a plurality within the movements. They may speak of allowing space for others but ultimately any movement that seeks to rule according to religious dogma can't truly allow that space.

 

[PTK]

Many resistance movements across the world are Islamist in nature.

I find that massively depressing.

And I use the term hijacked because that's what I think is going on here. More secular resistance is pushed to one side, and it is the nature of islamism not to allow for a plurality within the movements. They may speak of allowing space for others but ultimately any movement that seeks to rule according to religious dogma can't truly allow that space.

Secular national liberation movements are not always happy to embrace plurality, and have sometimes killed those in the movement they disagreed with. The failure of secular movements to liberate people opened a space for religious movements.

 

[agricola]

Many resistance movements across the world are Islamist in nature.

I find that massively depressing.

And I use the term hijacked because that's what I think is going on here. More secular resistance is pushed to one side, and it is the nature of islamism not to allow for a plurality within the movements. They may speak of allowing space for others but ultimately any movement that seeks to rule according to religious dogma can't truly allow that space.

That is certainly why Netanyahu was boosting Hamas for years, and IMHO it is the same sort of thing that has seen professional politicians try and game politics to go up against loon candidates, like Blair, Brown and Cameron did with UKIP, or Macron has done with le Pen and Clinton / Biden / the Establishment GOP did with Trump.

Basically encourage situations where their main opponents are "extremist" because they think it makes them the only legitimate choice for "decent people", which helpfully means they do not have to reform, redistribute wealth or even behave in a non corrupt way.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Secular national liberation movements are not always happy to embrace plurality, and have sometimes killed those in the movement they disagreed with. The failure of secular movements to liberate people opened a space for religious movements.

Sure. It's still massively depressing. Don't be gay in any place ruled by Hamas.

 

[Gramsci]

Many resistance movements across the world are Islamist in nature.

I find that massively depressing.

And I use the term hijacked because that's what I think is going on here. More secular resistance is pushed to one side, and it is the nature of islamism not to allow for a plurality within the movements. They may speak of allowing space for others but ultimately any movement that seeks to rule according to religious dogma can't truly allow that space.

Im an atheist so have no interest in religious based movements. But as posted before Hamas have previously said they would support a unity government.

Fatah/ Abbas do not have great record plurality. Or any criticism.

Nizar Banat’s death highlights brutality of Palestinian Authority

Killing of the strident Fatah critic has underlined the PA’s complicity with Israel and how far Mahmoud Abbas will go to crush dissent

www.theguardian.com

“Other people are critics of the PA, but no one was like Nizar. He was articulate: he could join the dots in a way others couldn’t, dismantling the PA’s lies with truth,” said Fadi Quran, a prominent human rights activist who has been arrested several times by both Israeli and Palestinian forces.

“The fact he used to be a member of Fatah himself also made him a threat. He was not just speaking to the opposition, but directly to their base,” he said over coffee at a gathering of activists in a Ramallah cafe.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I have an active interest in opposing religion-based movements.

 

[Pickman's model]

Secular national liberation movements are not always happy to embrace plurality, and have sometimes killed those in the movement they disagreed with. The failure of secular movements to liberate people opened a space for religious movements.

Do you think this happened just by the by or do you think that perhaps the zionist entity played some role in it? That is, have you read the numerous articles which report Netanyahu detailing the reasons behind his support for hamas and his undermining of secular Palestinian groups?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I've been avoiding the BBC over Gaza. Sadly it's made World Service virtually unlistenable. Today was no exception. They started a piece on the conflict by talking about the clash of religions, so I had to turn it over. This isn't a conflict about religion. It is a conflict about land. There are those on both sides who would like to make out that it is about religion, and Netanyahu's promotion of Hamas fits that narrative. They are to be opposed.

 

[PTK]

Do you think this happened just by the by or do you think that perhaps the zionist entity played some role in it? That is, have you read the numerous articles which report Netanyahu detailing the reasons behind his support for hamas and his undermining of secular Palestinian groups?

It was not only amongst the Palestinians that this happened, so altough the State of Israel encouraged a split in the Pleastinian national liberation movement by encouraging religious elements, there are also other material factors at work amongst the Palestinians and internationally.

 

[andysays]

Agreed. in any case I would not trust anything coming from Blair or his spokesperson.

In other news, it would appear that people in the Israeli judiciary are taking the proceedings presented to the ICJ by South Africa seriously:

View attachment 406764

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-january-1-2024/

Don't know if it's been mentioned before, but there's already significant tension in Israel between the Supreme Court and the Netanyahu government

Israel Supreme Court strikes down judicial reforms​

Israel's Supreme Court has struck down a controversial judicial reform that triggered nationwide protests last year against the Netanyahu government. The change would have limited the power of the Supreme Court in overturning laws it deemed unconstitutional.

Critics say it would have severely undermined the country's democracy by weakening the judicial system. There is strong opposition to the current Netanyahu government, seen as the most right-wing in Israeli history.

 

[teqniq]

'Tribal plan'. Right. Anyone asked the Palestinians about this?

 

[Knotted]

Divide and rule works on divisions that already exist. Tribes of Gaza wtf?

 

[lazythursday]

Desperately rifling through the policies of apartheid South Africa, they discovered Bantustans.

 

[ska invita]

Many resistance movements across the world are Islamist in nature.

I find that massively depressing.

And I use the term hijacked because that's what I think is going on here. More secular resistance is pushed to one side, and it is the nature of islamism not to allow for a plurality within the movements. They may speak of allowing space for others but ultimately any movement that seeks to rule according to religious dogma can't truly allow that space.

from my perspective Id add that its the inevitable result of deliberate squashing of all 'socialist' alternatives by the west for decades... political islam and western capitalist imperialism are ying and yang, utterly tied together.

This isn't a conflict about religion. It is a conflict about land. There are those on both sides who would like to make out that it is about religion, and Netanyahu's promotion of Hamas fits that narrative. They are to be opposed.

I do agree with you but fundamentalist religious beliefs are a driving ideological factor. If Palestinians were Jewish it wouldnt be an issue right? If Israeli's were pastafarians it would also change the dynamic

 

[mojo pixy]

If Palestinians were Jewish it wouldnt be an issue right?

Or majority Christian IMO. I do think one of the key reasons Palestinians have been (mis)treated as they have for so long is that they're Muslim, and Islam in general is the Great Satan of the western-liberal (christian or secular) hegemony.

 

[Pickman's model]

Divide and rule works on divisions that already exist. Tribes of Gaza wtf?

article from strategic insights journal (2008) on this point https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/36704726.pdf

 

[ska invita]

Or majority Christian IMO. I do think one of the key reasons Palestinians have been (mis)treated as they have for so long is that they're Muslim, and Islam in general is the Great Satan of the western-liberal (christian or secular) hegemony.

maybe .... thing is christians and their churches are also being attacked/destroyed and in Jerusalem Im pretty sure I heard that the Armenian Christian quarter is also being bullied by Jewish militants whose goal is Jewish total dominance
eta; for example this week:

Armenian Christians attacked in Jerusalem, some in serious condition

Patriarchate: "Armenian clerics in Jerusalem are fighting for their lives."

www.jpost.com

these people are zealots driven by scripture

 

[mojo pixy]

maybe .... thing is christians and their churches are also being attacked and in Jerusalem Im pretty sure I heard that the Armenian Christian quarter is also being bullied by Jewish militants whose goal is Jewish total dominance
eta; for example this week:

Armenian Christians attacked in Jerusalem, some in serious condition

Patriarchate: "Armenian clerics in Jerusalem are fighting for their lives."

www.jpost.com

these people are zealots driven by scripture

This is incidental IMO, actual 'collateral damage'. If the people were broadly Christian and it was all churches in Gaza, we would not be seeing this. The whole history of it would be totally different. The USA would for example not stand for it, and things would follow from there. It's arguable that the Balfour declaration wouldn't even have been made in the first place if Palestine had been a Christian place, it wouldn't have been 'a land without people', etc.


(Sorry ska invita I see what you're talking about - and if Jewish extremists go on attacking Christians and churches I expect to hear it reported very differently in our western media from if it were Muslims and mosques. We might even start to hear disapproving noises from the USA)

 

[ska invita]

This is incidental IMO, actual 'collateral damage'. If the people were broadly Christian and it was all churches in Gaza, we would not be seeing this. The whole history of it would be totally different. The USA would for example not stand for it, and things would follow from there. It's arguable that the Balfour declaration wouldn't even have been made in the first place if Palestine had been a Christian place, it wouldn't have been 'a land without people', etc.

I agree, no doubt the history would be very different....as it stands though I dont think collateral damage is a fair description to what is happening and to what underlies zionist politics...as has been said, this is an ongoing process of state formation, and that state is envisioned to be a 100% jewish one by many.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Or majority Christian IMO. I do think one of the key reasons Palestinians have been (mis)treated as they have for so long is that they're Muslim, and Islam in general is the Great Satan of the western-liberal (christian or secular) hegemony.

I think this is definitely a factor. And more than that, the fact that Israel is surrounded by majority Muslim countries is a big factor in US military support.

But that's an excuse used to disguise the fact that this is a conflict over land. Religion can be used to (roughly) identify the two groups in conflict, and it is used as the basis of Israeli 'right to return' policies, but the sane voices on the Palestinian side only talk about their right to return to the land they were kicked off in living memory. They don't mention religion. Religion really has nothing to do with it.

 

[ska invita]

but the sane voices on the Palestinian side only talk about their right to return to the land they were kicked off in living memory. They don't mention religion. Religion really has nothing to do with it.

you are dividing people into sides, "them" and "us", Israelis and Palestinians...these are distinctions utterly defined by religion as much as ethnic histories. Land for who? Which group gets what land? What defines what group someone belongs to? Like I said, if Palestinians were practicing Judaism that distinction would evaporate in the eyes of zionists. The overlapping of religion and ethnicity in Judaism is a major factor

 

[mojo pixy]

I think this is definitely a factor. And more than that, the fact that Israel is surrounded by majority Muslim countries is a big factor in US military support.

But that's an excuse used to disguise the fact that this is a conflict over land. Religion can be used to (roughly) identify the two groups in conflict, and it is used as the basis of Israeli 'right to return' policies, but the sane voices on the Palestinian side only talk about their right to return to the land they were kicked off in living memory. They don't mention religion. Religion really has nothing to do with it.

To an extent, however just because nobody talks about religion in this ongoing conflict doesn't mean it doesn't play a huge role. It's very much the elephant in the room IMO. That zionism is the crusades v.2.0 under a new name is an opinion I've heard in the past, and certainly from a Muslim point of view, has merit.

 

[Gramsci]

Im mot sure how much religion played a role.

Early Zionists were mainly secular. In Zionist thinking that Israel historically a Jewish homeland so they have a right to it- but its not just about religion.

Early Zionists tended to have the racist assumptions about non Europeans that were prevalent at the time in Europe.

That these were backward people the Zionist colonists should not mix with.

After WW1 mainstream thinking in Zionism saw some kind of population transfer. View was that with demise of Ottoman Empire Arabs had plenty of land so why can they not move out of Israel/ Palestine and live elsewhere in Middle East. Or as in Turkey/Greece do a population swap of Jews already living in middle east with Palestinian arabs.

Nor did Zionists advocate a situation like South Africa. With Europeans controlling land and Africans working on it.

They wanted Jewish Labour and Jewish land. Hence campaigns to stop mixing of Palestinians and Jews in Mandate.

An "Iron Wall" separating Arabs and Jews.

Ideas of purely Jewish ownership of land and only Jewish labour were common in Labour and Revisionist Zionism.

The difference between them at the time was Revisionist Zionism was much more upfront about what a Jewish Homeland would entail.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

you are dividing people into sides, "them" and "us", Israelis and Palestinians...these are distinctions utterly defined by religion as much as ethnic histories. Land for who? Which group gets what land? What defines what group someone belongs to? Like I said, if Palestinians were practicing Judaism that distinction would evaporate in the eyes of zionists. The overlapping of religion and ethnicity in Judaism is a major factor

Of course these distinctions are part of the identification of the different groups (at least from the outside), but the danger is that this then comes to define the terms of the conflict, and of course there are those who want to define the terms that way for their own reasons. If anything it is more those on the Israeli side who view things in this blurry religion/ethnicity way, insisting that it is Jewish land.

This speech at the UN by Nada Abu Tarbush has been posted here before, but I think it's worth posting it again. It's a powerful statement of a sense of Palestinian identity that is not dependent on Islam.



From 9 minutes onwards, she outlines perhaps an idealistic vision of what it means to be Palestinian, but idealistic or not, it is a good vision and it is a Palestinian vision. It also contains an explicit declaration of solidarity with Jews.