Spion
I hear ya
The report is online now. http://www.mossawacenter.org/files/...08/Mossawa HR report 2008 update Nov 2008.pdf
I look forward to your expose!
Israel, Gaza and the propaganda war
- Thread starter editor
- Start date
I look forward to your expose!
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=3399764&postcount=40Demosthenes said:
Spion
I hear ya
Such quick resort to ad homs makes plain you lack anything of substance to contribute
Well I don't know if that means you've been or not, - I presume it means you have.?
If you have, how can you possibly defend the view that Israel is run like South Africa? How can you make out that there's a right side and a wrong side?
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
What does working, visiting or living in Israel have to do with whether comparisons to Bantustans in S.A. during APartheid era are accurate or no?
This is spurious argument from you.
Not that I'm any kind of expert on the place on the basis of two short trips which as it happened were completely free of any bombs in Israel.
But I went there all prepared to see a racist imperialist israeli people oppressing the palestinians, and didn't find anything of the sort, what I found mainly was a lot of jewish people who were extremely kind and treated me like family, which certainly made a change after being in England.
Of course, I didn't go to the occupied territories, where I've no doubt the palestinians are being oppressed on the basis of accounts from other foreigners who had visited. But, that's the army that does that, and the lunatic settler fringe. And to hold the israeli people as a whole responsible doesn't seem right to me.
But I went there all prepared to see a racist imperialist israeli people oppressing the palestinians, and didn't find anything of the sort, what I found mainly was a lot of jewish people who were extremely kind and treated me like family, which certainly made a change after being in England.
Of course, I didn't go to the occupied territories, where I've no doubt the palestinians are being oppressed on the basis of accounts from other foreigners who had visited. But, that's the army that does that, and the lunatic settler fringe. And to hold the israeli people as a whole responsible doesn't seem right to me.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
So, what, you have to have been to Israel to comment, and if you have and you still disagree you're not very good at critical thinking?
Did you go to apartheid South Africa?
Spion
I hear ya
Because if you go, as say a kibbutz volunteer for eg, you more than likely don't go into Arab villages, you don't go into the West Bank.
When I first went I thought it was a really together country. Then I went again and started to hear the racist language towards Arabs, saw the bad treatment of Palestinians in the street in Jerusalem by IDF, saw the queues of Arabs at checkpoints near the green line (as we sailed past) saw the smoke and teargas from nearby villages after demonstrations on Land Day.
I can understand it's possible not to see or notice anything like this as a visitor to Israel, but I did
Well, you appear to think you know a lot about the place, so I would have thought it would help to have acquired the knowledge first hand.
Do you think you know more about Israel or about Britain.
Do you think you know more about Britain than someone who's read a lot about british politics but has never been here, or does having experienced britain help you have a better understanding of british politics? Is it possible to really understand british politics if you've never visited britain and spoken to a variety of british people to find out about their perceptions. ?
My view is no, and I think the same applies with Israel.
No, and I expect my mental impression of what apartheid South Africa was like, formed by films like Cry Freedom, and various highly publicised news events is probably mainly quite inaccurate.
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
Answer the question. What does working, visiting or living in Israel have to do with whether comparisons to Bantustans in S.A. during APartheid era are accurate or no?
Also, be aware that you have veered off topic since there is no current link being made during this latest crisis in Gaza/Palestine to S. A., unless you know any different.
Also, be aware that you have veered off topic since there is no current link being made during this latest crisis in Gaza/Palestine to S. A., unless you know any different.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Similarly I have not been Israel. For that matter the time I spent in apartheid South Africa probably did not give me much of an impression of the actual state of affairs, given that I mostly was around white people who certainly didn't spend their time beating black servants etc and were mostly very pleasant and reasonable (apart from a couple of examples). That wouldn't at all prevent a comparison of the operation of the two states based on their actions and laws.
I just did answer the question. The comparison between Israel and South Africa, that has often been made by many people, is unfair. The Israeli government doesn't treat palestinian citizens in anything like the way that the south african government used to treat black people, - except in the occupied territories, which are controlled by the army, who act like armies generally do and are above the law.
I know this to be true, because I've been there, and talked with palestinians in palestine, palestinian citizens of Israel, and many other israelis, and because of the incident I described earlier, which, if you disagree you might care to explain. If you haven't been there, and you do believe there's a fair comparison to be drawn, you only believe it on the basis of hear say, and as a matter of fact, you're quite wrong.
But have you read the account I posted earlier about the white farmer and his burned fields and his rage with the israeli police?
Again one side of the story.
What about the other side of the story? what about the attacks against israel?
You act as if Israel was created and then just went about systematically destroying their neighbours.
All the while ignoring the attempts by those neighbours to destroy israel.
You have decided to take one side, and now the ONLY information you ever divulge is designed to show ONE side in a bad light and pretend that the other side does nothing wrong.
You can't even bring yourself to admit that Palestine attacks Israel, when asked to admit it...you couldnt' do it.
Pillock.
Spion
I hear ya
I'd expect a great critical thinker like you to understand that one's own experiences with people are by nature only going to give a partial picture and that you can never understand a society without facts and figures on levels of wealth and its distribution, the major industries and who owns them, the ethnic and class breakdown of society and its effects on poverty, education achievement, housing, access to state jobs and funds etc.
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
As I suspected. You Demosthenes brought the discussion of comparisons between life in occupied palestine and S. A. into this particular thread. I don't know why you have done so, since you provide no proof that this is part of current issues surrounding Israeli Operation Solid Lead in Gaza .
Spion
I hear ya
Err, I mentioned them in the post you quoted.
Which they quite literally did. 750,000 Palestinians were driven from 550-ish villages and 100s of millions of dollars worth of businesses stolen in 1948-49 with further rounds taking place in the 50s and in 1967.
Sorry, when was this? 1948 perhaps? Arab armies responded to the Zionist militias/IDF ethnically cleansing 750,000 Palestinians. 1956 perhaps? Ah, but this time it was Israel, the UK and France attacking Egypt unilaterrally. Maybe you mean 1967? Here again Israel attacked three Arab states simultaneously.
So, when did these Arab states attempt to destroy Israel exactly?
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Yes; without context it isn't that informative though and, in any case, it wouldn't affect my perception of actual policies and actions of the Israeli government, because those are what they are and come from fairly solid sources like official records.
As it happens I don't compare the Israeli government to apartheid SA because I don't think it's terribly useful and there are significant differences in practice which just confuse the issue. That does not mean that it is an invalid comparison to look at, or that the Israeli government is not discriminatory.
Well actually it is very informative. It's informative that the arab villagers burned their jewish neighbour's fields, without fear of reprisals. It's informative that the jewish farmer employed someone continually to watch over those fields for fear they'd do this. And it's very informative that the israeli police weren't interested in and refused to investigate the jewish farmer's complaint, (because they knew he had a long history of problems with these neighbours,) and refused to take sides. Whereas a crucial element of a discriminatory state is a discriminatory police force.
Tangentlama, - you asked me why I brought up the issue about whether any of you people who know so much about Israel have actually been there.
I explained why, - now that I've explained why, you criticise the way in which I explain why as being irrelevant to the gaza israel issue. It may well be irrelevant to the gaza issue, but it's not irrelevant to the question you asked. I
What's your problem?
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
It's not that informative without context. What did this "burning" involve? What was he doing himself? Had he made an enemy of the local police? Who was actually burning his fields, was it an insurance fraud, did it happen at all? The basics, you know, like I'd ask about a farmer here who was complaining about his neighbours burning his fields.
And in the end it isn't that informative in terms of national politics because even if there are some odd local situations where actually, arabs get away with burning jewish neighbours' fields, in general we are quite well aware through numerous reports, all heavily sourced, that the converse - and worse - is considerably more likely.
tangentlama said:
I answered your question, as far as I can tell you never answered mine.
me said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War
Again though, you got the argument where you wanted it Spion.
In some stupid egg and chicken argument about who did what to whom first.
No one is innocent in this conflict and your main issue seems to be that Israel is better at killing and hurting Palestinians then Palestinians are at killing and hurting Isrealis.
Not that they are doing it, but just simply that they are better at it.
Think about that for a moment. You dislike Israel not because of what they do, because Palestine does the same, but simply that they are better at it.
What sort of a dickhead does that make you?
tangentlama
Nameless voices crying
I don't like the way you debate. You take the topic away to personal issues which don't have relevance. Your phrasing is tricky to grasp. It seems like you say I brought a subject (S. A comparisons) to this thread when it was you.
It is as though you are trying to say to urbanites who might wish to comment, that if they've never been to Israel, then your being to Israel twice on business somehow trumps the other's lack of being there or makes them a less informed commentator, etc.
Which is not a good viewpoint to have.
Everyone and anyone here is free to comment and it will help if they have some knowledge of history of this conflict, but is not compulsory to have deep historical knowledge (but it really does help). You don't have to have visited Israel. You don't have to have Israeli or Jewish or Muslim or Palestinian or Arab relatives to comment, ok.
Of course it happened. I saw it with my own eyes, - no he hadn't made an enemy of the local police but he had a longstanding hostility with the local arab villagers, and by the sounds of it they'd been having a miniwar for years.
No you don't get numerous reports heavily sourced of the converse, not in Israel, you get them in the occupied territories Not having been to Israel, you skate over the difference as if it's irrelevant, without realising just how crucial it is.
You may not find it informative: I did. Maybe you're just lacking in insight.
Spion
I hear ya
He goes to Wikipedia on this issue. Jeez
Well you post up a load of spurious statistics, and assume they're true. Personally, I doubt they are, though I don't know that they're not.
I always distrust statistics over personal experience. Statistics said that Britain was turning into a better place over the last ten years, - experience told me the opposite. Statistics say standards in British schools have risen. Personally I think that's a load of crap.
If you don't like the way I debate, maybe you should consider being a bit less certain about what you think you know, when actually you've got very little basis for your certainty.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
In what way is it informative about broader politics in the area?
In what way might I be "lacking insight"?
Similar threads
