Israel, Gaza and the propaganda war

[tangentlama]

Let's not lose sight of the topic - which is about the Israeli propaganda war designed to misrepresent the situation. I'm hearing that this is very bad in USA where a Likud-view is being presented to American tv viewers/radio listeners.

 

[frogwoman]

Given that they already pulled out of Sinai, and out of gaza, there are signs that suggest that they don't want to expand indefinitely.

bollocks. israel still controls every aspect of gaza and placed it under siege - the only thing that is missing are the gush katif settlers and the whole thing was turned into a media bonanza to disguise further settlement expansion in the west bank.

israel still controls part of syria and a small area of southern lebanon. they withdrew from egypt for strategic purposes so that the largest arab state on their border would be more amenable to them.

 

[frogwoman]

Well I've got no problem with people leaving this country if they want to. But I'd certainly have a problem with involuntary repatriation of british citizens, no matter what their ethnic origin.

what if the bnp started offering people large amounts of money to leave the country, would you agree with that? and if people didn't want to take the money would it be their fualt if something bad happened?

 

[tangentlama]

Let's not lose sight of the topic - which is about the Israeli propaganda war designed to misrepresent the situation. I'm hearing that this is very bad in USA where a Likud-view is being presented to American tv viewers/radio listeners.

I give an example.

Headline UK
01/01/09
"Israel defies peacemakers and prepares for invasion."
"Israel has defied a formidable international consensus in favour of a ceasefire in Gaza by opting to continue its unprecedentedly fierce air attacks on Hamas targets and stepping up preparations for a possible ground offensive."

Headline USA
01/01/09
"In a Broadening Offensive, Israel Steps Up Diplomacy."
"With Israeli troops and tanks massing along the border with Gaza in preparation for a possible ground invasion, Israel also pursued diplomatic avenues to explain its positions."
(Translation: Israel argues it needs more time for war)

Propaganda tries to tell us that war will bring peace. It will not.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Let's not lose sight of the topic - which is about the Israeli propaganda war designed to misrepresent the situation. I'm hearing that this is very bad in USA where a Likud-view is being presented to American tv viewers/radio listeners.

Which isn't really surprising, given:

a) The "conservatism" of mainstream media.
b) The prevalence of pro-Zionism in the political mainstream in the USA.
c) The current equating of "Palestinian" with "HAMAS" with "murderous Islamicist nutcases"
d) The equating of even a loosely "pro-Palestinian" position with dangerous leftism.

 

[Demosthenes]

Why is there no solution if the palestinians refused to move out?

why is it always the palestinians that have to make this kind of concession?

How about Israel started to listen to some of the UN resolutions applied to it for a change or face the consequences - international boycotts right the way up to sanctions?

Why punish the israeli people for the actions of their government? They're as incapable of changing their government for the better as we are.

Life's hard enough as it is.

Why is it the palestinians that I recommend have to make this kind of concession?
Well, not for particularly moral reasons, mainly for reasons of practicality. What's happened to many palestinians does seem to me to be very unfair, - but given the situation there doesn't seem to be much way of remedying it, and it doesn't sound to me as if gaza will ever be a viable independent country. But nonetheless the plain fact of the matter is more or less that Palestine and Israel have been quietly at war since the beginning of the state of Israel, and that in the first place Palestine had the open support of neighboring arab governments, whereas now they don't have that support, and it's become quite clear that without that support they've lost the war, and some of the people of Palestine are suffering the consequences of having lost that war. So in the circumstances, I think in the long run it would be better for everyone if those who'd accept it were paid substantial compensation and allowed to become citizens of some neighboring arab country. But having said that, also it would be better in the long run if the israeli government stopped blockading gaza, and stopped a number of other bad things that their armed forces do in the occupied territories with the support of their government, though not, I believe with the support of most israelis.

 

[Demosthenes]

what if the bnp started offering people large amounts of money to leave the country, would you agree with that? and if people didn't want to take the money would it be their fualt if something bad happened?

If the BNP were democratically elected and started offering people large amounts of money to leave the country, tbh I'd probably be quite pissed off unless they offered me loads of money to leave the country as well, but it doesn't seem to me to be a totally outrageous thing to do, unless it's a case of forcible removal of british citizens, or reneging on terms of someone's residency without their consent.
Would it be their fault if something bad happened if they didn't take the money, no, of course not.

 

[frogwoman]

why were the palestinians punished for electing hamas, as soon as the results were in britain, the EU and the states were falling over themselves to cut off funding.

it isn't just about the occuptation mate - it is about the utter failure of israel to abide by international laws since its inception, its denial of the right of even palestinians living in israel proper to live as equal citizens while presenting itself as a "democracy" and a "jewish homeland", and not only not be punished but be cheered on by the west for doing so. what you are basically saying is that because it is more "practical" to impose more punitive conditions on the palestinians (as if they havent suffered enough) we should do so. this ignores the criminal responsibility of the state of israel in the whole affair, it prevents israel from having to do anything. why should palestinians be persuaded to move somewhere else so that israel can steal every single last bit of palestinian land? why shoudl they be sent to live as second class citizens in some fucking corrupt saudi arabia-lite shithole just to satisfy the whims of the people who want the world to forget that there was ever such things as palestinians in the first place?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Given that they already pulled out of Sinai, and out of gaza, there are signs that suggest that they don't want to expand indefinitely.

You're in an "apples and oranges" situation as regards the Sinai and Gaza. The Sinai has been an acknowledged part of Egyptian territory for a long while, so had to be returned, but as the state of Israel doesn't recognise Palestine as a sovereign state, they have far less compunction about fucking around with Gaza, which to all intents and purposes, given the control of access by the state of Israel, is still an Israeli possession except in name.

 

[Demosthenes]

bollocks. israel still controls every aspect of gaza and placed it under siege - the only thing that is missing are the gush katif settlers and the whole thing was turned into a media bonanza to disguise further settlement expansion in the west bank.

israel still controls part of syria and a small area of southern lebanon. they withdrew from egypt for strategic purposes so that the largest arab state on their border would be more amenable to them.

Well it's not bollocks, they did pull the army out of gaza, and stopped occupying it, and they don't control every aspect of gaza, which is why it's now news that they're invading gaza again. If they did control every aspect of gaza then there wouldn't have been any rockets fired to provide the israelis with their reason for invading.

 

[frogwoman]

and i think sanctions are an entirely legitimate way of coercing israel to listen to world opinion. hell we have done it to iran for even being suspected of wnating to build a bomb.

 

[claphamboy]

to ViolentPanda

Yet here you are, stalking me again.

Why do you keep claiming people are stalking you?

It’s just like that other twat, trev.

 

[audiotech]

No my pizza base would probably cripple the teeth of any soldier who bit into it.



<you've just given me the pythonesque image of me riding round a battlefield riding a 50cc pizza bike with L plates on >

A cowardly little scab like you on a battlefield, any battlefield, is an image that I could never envisage tbh.

 

[Demosthenes]

why were the palestinians punished for electing hamas, as soon as the results were in britain, the EU and the states were falling over themselves to cut off funding.

it isn't just about the occuptation mate - it is about the utter failure of israel to abide by international laws since its inception, its denial of the right of even palestinians living in israel proper to live as equal citizens while presenting itself as a "democracy" and a "jewish homeland", and not only not be punished but be cheered on by the west for doing so. what you are basically saying is that because it is more "practical" to impose more punitive conditions on the palestinians (as if they havent suffered enough) we should do so. this ignores the criminal responsibility of the state of israel in the whole affair, it prevents israel from having to do anything. why should palestinians be persuaded to move somewhere else so that israel can steal every single last bit of palestinian land? why shoudl they be sent to live as second class citizens in some fucking corrupt saudi arabia-lite shithole just to satisfy the whims of the people who want the world to forget that there was ever such things as palestinians in the first place?

Well my impression overall is that palestinians who are israeli citizens in israel proper do all right, but of course life is tough for every israeli citizen who's not rich, which is most of them.

With my own eyes I saw this zionist farmer ranting and raving at the israeli police to come and do something about his arab neighbours who'd just set his fields on fire, and then ranting and raving at me about how unfair it was that the police had told him they weren't going to do anything. Tbh that convinced me that comparisons with south africa are unwarranted. I can't imagine the police of the old south africa giving a response like that to some outraged afrikaans farmer, I can't even imagine the black people of south africa daring to burn a white farmer's fields when they were the oppressed majority, I reckon they knew all too well what the consequences were likely to be.

It probably would be better overall if palestine and israel was just one big country, they were all citizens and they all voted.

In the circumstances, most people don't think that's possible, though I don't see any good reason why it shouldn't be, but, if most people are right, then there aren't any good alternatives, so it's either carry on as they are, or think of something new, - and compensation for the palestinians of gaza does sound like a possible alternative to me. I mean would they be any worse off as citizens of say, egypt, with a fair amount of capital each to start off afresh, than they are at the moment?

Anyway, that's all I want to say on the subject, you want to emote about how bad the israeli government and armed forces are, and I don't. Governments and armed forces are like that. As Dravinian pointed out, we went to war simply because we were told that Saddam had weapons that he might use against us, and we can't get rid of our government either.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well it's not bollocks, they did pull the army out of gaza, and stopped occupying it, and they don't control every aspect of gaza, which is why it's now news that they're invading gaza again. If they did control every aspect of gaza then there wouldn't have been any rockets fired to provide the israelis with their reason for invading.

Oh dear.

You do realise that the Qassam launches went on while the gaza strip was occupied too, don't you? They were deemed insignificant enough back then to be viewed as a minor irritation, nothing more.
And that the state of Israel controls access into Gaza by land, sea and air?

 

[Demosthenes]

and i think sanctions are an entirely legitimate way of coercing israel to listen to world opinion. hell we have done it to iran for even being suspected of wnating to build a bomb.

Quite wrongly in my view.

 

[Demosthenes]

Oh dear.

You do realise that the Qassam launches went on while the gaza strip was occupied too, don't you? They were deemed insignificant enough back then to be viewed as a minor irritation, nothing more.
And that the state of Israel controls access into Gaza by land, sea and air?

I knew that some people were firing missiles out of gaza into israel when it was occupied yes.. But like I said in my last post, but one I'm tired of this argument now.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why do you keep claiming people are stalking you?

It gives some meaning to his otherwise pathetic life, I suspect.

It’s just like that other twat, trev.

Nah, nothing like. Trev's a harmless wind-up merchant.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I knew that some people were firing missiles out of gaza into israel when it was occupied yes.. But like I said in my last post, but one I'm tired of this argument now.

Poor you.

 

[Demosthenes]

Have you ever been to Israel?

 

[Spion]

Well my impression overall is that palestinians who are israeli citizens in israel proper do all right

Part from being second class citizens and constantly being told they don't belong there . . .

The Human Rights Status of the Palestinian Arab Minority of Israel, April 2008-07-04

http://www.mossawacenter.org/ (Document not online yet)

Some key facts:

* Arab citizens make up 20% of Israel’s population

* But, only get 5% of funds from the development budget and 3% of funds from regular government budget.

* Only 6% of government employees are Arab

* Only 3.5% of land is owned by Arabs

* Israel’s overall poverty levels - 17.1% in 2001 (up from 20.2% in 2005)

* Percentage of Arab families living in poverty 54% in 2006 (up from 52% in 2005)

* Poverty among Jewish families has decreased from 15.9% of families in 2005 to 14.7% in 2006

* The document also highlights dozens of racist murders against Arabs, racist statements made by political leaders, thousands of cases of incitement on the internet (especially on Israeli press feedback sites), 5 NGOs that call for racist action against Arab communities, plus attacks on cemeteries and holy places (mosques and churches) and 11 discriminatory laws

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=7723667&postcount=13

 

[Demosthenes]

Not exactly an unbiased source though is it. ?

 

[Spion]

Not exactly an unbiased source though is it. ?

No-one is ever unbiased. If you're saying it's inaccurate that's quite another matter and you 'd need to prove your case

 

[Demosthenes]

No-one is ever unbiased. If you're saying it's inaccurate that's quite another matter and you 'd need to prove your case

I think you need to prove your case that it's accurate.

 

[tangentlama]

Not exactly an unbiased source though is it. ?

The information is accurate. You can see it is correct if you check these figures.

You can see the information is accurate in many types of report.
Example: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/19/AR2007121902681_pf.html

For the first 18 years of Israeli statehood, we, as Israeli citizens, lived under military rule with pass laws that controlled our every movement. We watched Jewish Israeli towns spring up over destroyed Palestinian villages.

Today we make up 20% of Israel's population. We do not drink at separate water fountains or sit at the back of the bus. We vote and can serve in the parliament. But we face legal, institutional and informal discrimination in all spheres of life.

More than 20 Israeli laws explicitly privilege Jews over non-Jews. The Law of Return, for example, grants automatic citizenship to Jews from anywhere in the world. Yet Palestinian refugees are denied the right to return to the country they were forced to leave in 1948. The Basic Law of Human Dignity and Liberty — Israel's "Bill of Rights" — defines the state as "Jewish" rather than a state for all its citizens. Thus Israel is more for Jews living in Los Angeles or Paris than it is for native Palestinians.

Israel acknowledges itself to be a state of one particular religious group. Anyone committed to democracy will readily admit that equal citizenship cannot exist under such conditions.

Most of our children attend schools that are separate but unequal. According to recent polls, two-thirds of Israeli Jews would refuse to live next to an Arab and nearly half would not allow a Palestinian into their home.

I have certainly ruffled feathers in Israel. In addition to speaking out on the subjects above, I have also asserted the right of the Lebanese people, and of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, to resist Israel's illegal military occupation. I do not see those who fight for freedom as my enemies.

This may discomfort Jewish Israelis, but they cannot deny us our history and identity any more than we can negate the ties that bind them to world Jewry. After all, it is not we, but Israeli Jews who immigrated to this land. Immigrants might be asked to give up their former identity in exchange for equal citizenship, but we are not immigrants.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-bishara3may03,0,2351340.story?coll=la-opinion-rightrail

 

[Demosthenes]

Have you ever been to Israel?

 

[Spion]

Have you ever been to Israel?

Yes, I've spent about 10 months of my life there.

What's your point exactly?

 

[tangentlama]

I think you need to prove your case that it's accurate.

The information is accurate.

ACRI report shows discrimination and social gaps
To mark Jerusalem Day, Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics issued the following figures:

Jerusalem, the country’s largest city, has a current population of 746,300 residents and has grown by 1.8% over the past year. Of the city’s residents, 66% are Jews and 34% Arabs.

The birthrate for Jews and Arabs is now almost identical. The Arab birthrate has decreased from 4.3 in 2000 to 4, while the Jewish birthrate has risen from 3 in 2000 to 3.9.

Sixty-seven percent of Arab families, compared to 21% of Jewish families, live below the poverty line. Thirty-nine percent of Jewish children and 77% of Arab children live below the poverty line in the city.

NIF's flagship grantee Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI) also issued a research report for Jerusalem Day, focusing on the social gaps and discrimination suffered by East Jerusalem's Arabs.

Research findings indicate: "discrimination in planning and construction, requisitioning of land and minimal investment in infrastructures and services – which create a vicious circle of neglect, discrimination, poverty and deprivation."

The report also focuses on the high number of Arabs living below the poverty line and other worrying statistics including:
More than one third of the land in East Jerusalem, which had previously belonged to private Arab owners, has been requisitioned by the Israeli government. Over 50,000 homes have been built on this land for Jews.

East Jerusalem lacks 70 kilometers of sewage piping.

Nearly 66% of Arab homes in East Jerusalem are not properly connected to the water system.

Fifty percent of Arab teenagers in East Jerusalem drop out of school.

There are 7 post offices serving Arab neighborhoods, compared to more than 50 in Jewish districts of Jerusalem.

http://www.nif.org/media-center/newsletters/enews-clips/jerusalem-2008-acri-report.html

Further evidence can be found across the web of the unequal nature for israeli arabs, example: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/amnesty-condemns-israel-over-arabs-623066.html

 

[Demosthenes]

Yes, I've spent about 10 months of my life there.

What's your point exactly?

I didn't ask you.

 

[Demosthenes]

Though to be honest I'm surprised. I don't really understand how people can have gone to Israel and developed as onesided a view of the situation as you have,

But then I noticed earlier that you're not very good at critical thinking.