Israel, Gaza and the propaganda war

[Detroit City]

history is created by those who write it

 

[RhymnRzn]

Hardly surprising is it really.

At the end of the day if Hamas the elected leaders of the area can't stop rockets being fired into Israel then they need to realise that there is a price to pay for that.

You can't sit there firing rockets at people and expect no retaliation.

The complaints are the usual complaints made and are just as ignorable as they always are.

Stop firing rockets at Israel and the attack will end, pretty straight forward.

Is the IDF still having their children coloring their missiles, and remote controling them with game-like masteries? far from being lessons taught by the thorns of the field, to a people who wouldn't give water to a bunch of thirsty sojourners.

 

[Dravinian]

far from being lessons taught by the thorns of the field, to a people who wouldn't give water to a bunch of thirsty sojourners.

Still changes nothing, you can bitch and moan all you like, but if someone was firing Rockets at us, you can bet our Government would be using military force to protect us.

And don't pretend they wouldn't, we went to war and killed 100,000s of Iraqis on the basis that they had weapons that could harm us....they hadn't actually done anything, they had never fired a missile at us.

Yet we felt justified as a nation in invading and killing 100,000s.

So lets not get up on our high horse about israelis all being bastards, wouldn't give a drink to someone.....it is a bit hypocritical isn't poster from Ohio.

 

[RhymnRzn]

^Your words are firey rockets heading towards a patch of the dried up branches of fruitless minds. I can think of a few things that would count these men's lives to be precious, rather than turning them the deaf ear, the blind eye, and telling them to sit under your footstool.

Forget the rockets for a moment. These men are now so far from peace they would probably wish above all else to fight back hand to hand if they could.

And I am not sure you grasped the statement I made: I think Hamas probably would give a drink to you, if you were about to die of thirst on their watch: but hundreds are dead.

 

[kavenism]

Still changes nothing, you can bitch and moan all you like, but if someone was firing Rockets at us, you can bet our Government would be using military force to protect us.

And don't pretend they wouldn't, we went to war and killed 100,000s of Iraqis on the basis that they had weapons that could harm us....they hadn't actually done anything, they had never fired a missile at us.

Yet we felt justified as a nation in invading and killing 100,000s.

So lets not get up on our high horse about israelis all being bastards, wouldn't give a drink to someone.....it is a bit hypocritical isn't poster from Ohio.

You are conveniently ignoring the situation outside of the "they're firing at us so we have to fire back at them" area. Gaza has been under siege for years and the Palestinians subject to what by any non ideological definition is ethnic cleansing. Are you really going to argue that it's the responsibility of an occupied, starved and desperate people to provide security to the occupying force which has consistently used every opportunity to annex more land they have no entitlement to through murder and state terror.

 

[nino_savatte]

Wikipedia entry for Mark Regev (formerly mark Freiberg of Melbourne).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Regev

Here's how Regev spun the death of a photo-journalist

“We have expressed regret and the army is conducting an investigation. It’s a tragedy,” said Spokesman for Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Mark Regev. “There was no identification that he was a journalist. Had it been clear he was a journalist, the shell would not have been fired.”

Regev’s claim isn’t merely a mistake since every media report on Shana’s death clearly states that not only was the journalist wearing a press marking on his person, his vehicle too was clearly marked (see photos).

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2008/06/17/mark-regev-is-a-liar/

Have a look at Bill Pearlman's comment.

 

[Spion]

Changes nothing.

Cept we now get to argue what came first the chicken or the egg?

I don't really care, Israel have been clear, stop firing rockets we stop bombing you....they still firing rockets.

Now until they stop doing that, then I see no reason to offer up any sympathy. Once they stopped firing and israel continues to bomb them, which is likely, then I will, with everyone else here, condemn them for that.

No, you're talking complete bollocks. Gaza was overrun by Israel in 1967, was occupied, was then merely blockaded from 2 years ago, and is now being partially occupied again. Occupation brings resistance.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No, you're talking complete bollocks. Gaza was overrun by Israel in 1967, was occupied, was then merely blockaded from 2 years ago, and is now being partially occupied again. Occupation brings resistance.

Dravinian doesn't give a fuck about the issue, he's just, rather predictably, being a contrarian.

Best to ignore. If you engage him and show him up he gets very upset.

 

[tangentlama]

Israel broke the ceasefire

Status: True.

One very important point here, I must clarify that it was not the Palestinians or Hamas that broke the ceasefire; Israel was the one that broke the ceasefire since two months. They started operations and attacks here and there, trying to provoke a reaction, ’til there was a reaction, and then they claim that it was the Palestinians who broke the ceasefire.

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/12/29/israeli_attacks_kill_over_310_in

 

[TomUS]

Moving along, what other misrepresentations of truth (i.e. LIES) have we heard through the media ?

Well, Ive been comparing CNN & Fox coverage. CNN has been trying to be somewhat balanced, with their reporter outside Gaza heavily criticizing Israel for not letting journalists in.

Fox is a total joke. They ran a program: Escape From Hamas. It follows the son of a founder of Hamas who became disillusioned, & converted to Christianity & moved to San Diego & is now trying to convince other Palestinians to convert to the true religion & find salvation in Jesus.

 

[hipipol]

Same here with Sky

Pity none of hamas rockets have landed on that bastard Murdoch

 

[Zachor]

Still changes nothing, you can bitch and moan all you like, but if someone was firing Rockets at us, you can bet our Government would be using military force to protect us.

Agree with you there. Also I would bet money that many of those on here who are condemning the Israeli defensive action against Hamas would be calling for attacks on those who were attacking us in a similar way.

And don't pretend they wouldn't, we went to war and killed 100,000s of Iraqis on the basis that they had weapons that could harm us....they hadn't actually done anything, they had never fired a missile at us.

Yet we felt justified as a nation in invading and killing 100,000s.

Yes the reasons given for the invasion of Iraq were untrue and unjust. I would say there was justification politically for intervention in Afghanistan but the invasion of Iraq was pure folly. I'm not sure how much I agree with you on the 100k death toll as being totally caused by Coalition forces many of these were a result of inter communal and inter religious fighting and terrorist atrocities.

So lets not get up on our high horse about israelis all being bastards, wouldn't give a drink to someone.....it is a bit hypocritical isn't poster from Ohio.

Exactly. My only hope is that this action does see the end of Hamas's ability to attack Israel and attack other Palestinians and that a minimum number of civilians are killed or injured.

The entry of ground troops was inevitable as you cannot bomb a terrorist network out of an area without 'doing a Grozny' which the Israelis are rightly not in favour of doing.

Neither the Israelis own people nor much of the Diaspora nor general international opinion would accept that. It is not in Israels interest to flatten Gaza. The use of ground troops may enable the IDF to remove much more Hamas assets both human and material and spare the civilians the impact of more bombing.

Also ground forces need to be there to protect the coming humanitarian aid which will urgently needed to be sent to Gaza.

I wish this hadn't come to pass but it has and the only effective outcome which would lead to a better deal for both Israelis and Palestinians is the total destruction of Hamas as a military force.

 

[Spion]

Exactly. My only hope is that this action does see the end of Hamas's ability to attack Israel and attack other Palestinians and that a minimum number of civilians are killed or injured.

It won't. It will create even more volunteers to defend what little they have left and exact revenge.

Of course, Hamas might be severely weakened and its leaders killed. Of course then a younger, new leadership of the Gazans will emerge. And do you think they are going to love Israel any more?

You're as thick as the Israeli bullies you suck up to

 

[TomUS]

Same here with Sky

Pity none of hamas rockets have landed on that bastard Murdoch

I'd prefer Israeli munitions hit him, they're more powerful.

 

[hipipol]

Also ground forces need to be there to protect the coming humanitarian aid which will urgently needed to be sent to Gaza.

I wish this hadn't come to pass but it has and the only effective outcome which would lead to a better deal for both Israelis and Palestinians is the total destruction of Hamas as a military force.

Agreeing with Drav eh? My you must be desperate for allies - or possibly you are just rather thick.

This sort of utterly deluded NewSpeak is why the safety of Jews worlldwide will now be threatened - do you honestly think that building a wall of rage makes things better?

As for dealing with attacks by bombing people back to the stoneage - it doesn't work - I dont recall any attempt to bomb Dublin during De Valeras tenure or more recently when the gun runner Charlie Haughey was Taoiseach - possibly because this, oddly enough is a civilised country, wheras Israel is going out of its way to prove that its not

 

[tangentlama]

Hamas haven't tried to negotiate another ceasefire

Status: False

Hamas says it may consider new truce with Israel

Senior Hamas leader Mahmud Zahar said that Hamas would consider renewing a six-month truce if Israel respects ceasefire conditions which include lifting the blockade of the Palestinian enclave and stopping military raids on the besieged territory.

AFP - A tense calm reigned over the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip on Tuesday as the Palestinian Islamist group said it might be willing to agree to a new truce with Israel.

Gaza militants were holding their fire and Israeli forces were not carrying out raids on the territory after Hamas announced on Monday that it would not launch rockets or fire mortars for 24 hours.

Senior Hamas leader Mahmud Zahar told AFP that the movement could consider extending the temporary lull and agreeing to a new long-term truce, following the expiry on Friday of a six-month ceasefire.

Hamas is ready to renew the truce "if Israel respects the conditions of a ceasefire," he said.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Agreeing with Drav eh? My you must be desperate for allies - or possibly you are just rather thick.

This sort of utterly deluded NewSpeak is why the safety of Jews worlldwide will now be threatened - do you honestly think that building a wall of rage makes things better?

It has a very real possibility of "making things better" for the nationalist-Zionists who hold power in the state of Israel, because it could quite easily provoke an upswell of sentiment against the state of Israel that will make some Jews afraid to stay in their country of birth, and the state of Israel has a boner for new immigrants, especially if they're from the US or Europe and have degree-level education.

You can bet Zachor will be over there like a shot once he's old enough to not be conscripted.

 

[Dravinian]

Dravinian doesn't give a fuck about the issue, he's just, rather predictably, being a contrarian.

Best to ignore. If you engage him and show him up he gets very upset.

Ahh the tory cunt now stalks me....not surprised really, you are a right wing toss pot.

No, you're talking complete bollocks. Gaza was overrun by Israel in 1967, was occupied, was then merely blockaded from 2 years ago, and is now being partially occupied again. Occupation brings resistance.

Oh so for the 19 years from when Israel was created there were no troubles, then all of a sudden, out of the blue, Isreal just decided that it was going to overrun Gaza...just like that.

Is that really what happened, cause I kinda get the feeling that other stuff happened which lead to that situation.

Like I said before, chicken and egg.

You are conveniently ignoring the situation outside of the "they're firing at us so we have to fire back at them" area. Gaza has been under siege for years and the Palestinians subject to what by any non ideological definition is ethnic cleansing. Are you really going to argue that it's the responsibility of an occupied, starved and desperate people to provide security to the occupying force which has consistently used every opportunity to annex more land they have no entitlement to through murder and state terror.

Are you seriously suggesting that the Palestinian people are some innocent group of wonderful people who have done no wrong and would dearly love to live in peace with the Israelis?

Why do people always act like this is a one way story.

Look I am willing to conceed this.

Israel treat Palestine very badly, it is utterly wrong, deserves international condemnation and really something should be done.


Now lets see if any of you fuckers can say the same about Palestine and its treatment of Israel and refusal to accept that it should even exist.

Or should we all pretend that Israel crushes Palestine underfoot for no good reason?

 

[Spion]

Now lets see if any of you fuckers can say the same about Palestine and its treatment of Israel and refusal to accept that it should even exist.

Palestinians don't occupy any parts of Israel, they do not blockade supplies in and out of Israel, they do not control Israel's land, sea and air traffic, they do not kill hundreds of Israelis in a week.

Moron

 

[Dravinian]

Palestinians don't occupy any parts of Israel, they do not blockade supplies in and out of Israel, they do not control Israel's land, sea and air traffic, they do not kill hundreds of Israelis in a week.

Moron

See you couldn't bring yourself to do it.

Bias, on a scale that is just laughable.

So no palestinians have ever killed any isrealis that were happily drinking a coffee at a cafe....and if they did....then it was fine, tehy aer allowed to do that....but Isreal isn't allowed to do anything in return for those murders.

Your view of the world surprises me, how you can be so biased and only view one side of an issue.

 

[nino_savatte]

Israel treat Palestine very badly, it is utterly wrong, deserves international condemnation and really something should be done.

So let's just engage in a little handwringing, eh? Tut tut tut, naughty Israel. As you were.

 

[claphamboy]

So no palestinians have ever killed any isrealis that were happily drinking a coffee at a cafe....and if they did....then it was fine, tehy aer allowed to do that....but Isreal isn't allowed to do anything in return for those murders.

What’s the current score since this latest situation developed?

The last report I read quoted UN sources saying 4 Israelis dead and 470 Palestinians.

Seems a bit uneven to me, and anyone with any commonsense.

Just imagine if the UK reacted to an IRA mainland bomb, back in the 70s or 80s, killing X number of people by bombing and/or invading Ireland to kill at least 100 to 1.

 

[Demosthenes]

See you couldn't bring yourself to do it.

Bias, on a scale that is just laughable.

So no palestinians have ever killed any isrealis that were happily drinking a coffee at a cafe....and if they did....then it was fine, tehy aer allowed to do that....but Isreal isn't allowed to do anything in return for those murders.

Your view of the world surprises me, how you can be so biased and only view one side of an issue.

That's more or less how I see it. There's something about this conflict that impels people to take sides. Nowadays, our inclination is to take sides with the palestinians as they're the underdogs, and are taking most of the casualties. But it wasn't always like that. There was a time when Israel was under attack from all sides blockaded by all the arab nations, and bankrupt and had no international support to maintain itself, but had to do so against the odds. I think quite a few israelis are a bit paranoid maybe, they see themselves as this tiny island of jews amid a sea of arabs who want to destroy them and drive them into the sea, and - they've nowhere else to go.
But maybe that paranoia's not totally unjustified.

That said, I've got no problem in saying that I think the israeli government actions at the moment are totally disproportionate and er, wrong.

 

[frogwoman]

people complain that "israel's not allowed to fight back" etc. i agree that there is a disproportionate amount of focus on palestine by the left and by the media in general for a number of reasons.

the fact is that israel IS allowed to basically get away with whatever it wants, hamas has been labelled a terrorist organisation and charities such as Interpal have had their assets frozen, Israeli goods sold in British supermarkets, British arms companies giving Israel arms, US military aid etc so asking "why israel can't defend itself" is a nonsense question and it assumes that condemnation of Israel has any affect at all on the actions of that state. It doesn't.

 

[Zachor]

You can bet Zachor will be over there like a shot once he's old enough to not be conscripted.

I'm already too old to be conscripted. Might see if they need anyone for their catering corp though.

 

[frogwoman]

pizza for the idf?

 

[Zachor]

pizza for the idf?

No my pizza base would probably cripple the teeth of any soldier who bit into it.



<you've just given me the pythonesque image of me riding round a battlefield riding a 50cc pizza bike with L plates on >

 

[Demosthenes]

But it is a bit of a problem. What should israel do?

If what they say is true, that there are a few people in gaza who every now and again fire rockets at people in Israel, and these people in gaza either are the government or else can't be stopped by the gazan government, in as far as there is one, just what are the israeli government supposed to do about it, given their not unreasonable view that their own citizens are entitled to protection.

I can certainly say that to me the israeli government actions seem disproportionate. And I'm not prepared to try to defend them. But, I'm not sure what alternative there is for Israel apart from sitting on their hands, accepting it, and asking them to please stop it.

 

[frogwoman]

But it is a bit of a problem. What should hamas do?

If what they say is true, that there are a few people in israel who have blocked off all access to gaza by sea, land and air and have stopped humanitarian aid from getting in so that some families are forced to eat grass and cannot access proper medical treatment, every now and again launch air strikes at people in gaza, and these people in israel either are the government or else can't be stopped by the israeli government, in as far as there is one, just what are hamas supposed to do about it, given their not unreasonable view that their own citizens are entitled to protection.

I can certainly say that to me that hamas's actions seem disproportionate. And I'm not prepared to try to defend them. But, I'm not sure what alternative there is for hamas apart from sitting on their hands, accepting it, and asking them to please stop it.

fixed it for you

 

[Zachor]

But it is a bit of a problem. What should israel do?

If what they say is true, that there are a few people in gaza who every now and again fire rockets at people in Israel, and these people in gaza either are the government or else can't be stopped by the gazan government, in as far as there is one, just what are the israeli government supposed to do about it, given their not unreasonable view that their own citizens are entitled to protection.

I can certainly say that to me the israeli government actions seem disproportionate. And I'm not prepared to try to defend them. But, I'm not sure what alternative there is for Israel apart from sitting on their hands, accepting it, and asking them to please stop it.

Sensible post. There is not much else the Israeli government could have done in the face of the violence and obstinancy coming out of Gaza from Hamas. Of course the Israeli people are entitled to protection. I wish it hadn't come to this but it has and the question is when will it stop and how. I don't think that Israel is in any mood to suffer the running sore of a Gaza run by an exterminationist fascist organisation and may well carry on until Hamas are no longer a threat. After that the Palestinian civilians in Gaza should be the subject of a massive international aid programme to stop a humanitarian disaster and rebuild a Gaza which has been destroyed by war and the depredations of Hamas on their society.