frogwoman said:
it isn't just about the occuptation mate - it is about the utter failure of israel to abide by international laws since its inception, its denial of the right of even palestinians living in israel proper to live as equal citizens while presenting itself as a "democracy" and a "jewish homeland", and not only not be punished but be cheered on by the west for doing so. what you are basically saying is that because it is more "practical" to impose more punitive conditions on the palestinians (as if they havent suffered enough) we should do so. this ignores the criminal responsibility of the state of israel in the whole affair, it prevents israel from having to do anything. why should palestinians be persuaded to move somewhere else so that israel can steal every single last bit of palestinian land? why shoudl they be sent to live as second class citizens in some fucking corrupt saudi arabia-lite shithole just to satisfy the whims of the people who want the world to forget that there was ever such things as palestinians in the first place?
Apart from what you say about the denial of the right of palestinians who are israeli citizens to live as equal citizens, (which I think you're mainly wrong about though not entirely,) I think what you're saying there is basically right.
But you're looking at this from a moral point of view, and I'm not, I'm looking at it from a utilitarian point of view because in this version of reality, right and wrong seem to be increasingly meaningless concepts, because there is no plan that's going to enable things to turn out right that's actually happening any more. And if it's impossible for what's right to happen, then I suppose we should look for the least worst outcome possible.
I actually really sympathise with what you say, and feel rather ashamed to have become so cynical that I advocate a utilitarian strategy rather than pushing the issue of right and wrong.
But what good is punishing people.? Don't you see something ironic in condemning the israeli government for collectively punishing palestinians and then demanding that the israeli people be collectively punished with sanctions.
I have to admit I am biased in favour of the jewish people in this issue, - but I try to be objective about it, - and tbh I think that some people who love to get fired up on one side or other, ignore the history, ignore the experience of the two peoples, and don't see the complexity and apparent irresolvability of the situation.
When I talked to israeli friends after this incident with the zionist farmer, their view was that he deserved it because he was a zionist, and was well known for having antagonised his arab neighbours since he became their neighbour. Their view was that this was why the police wouldn't investigate his complaint, even though it was perfectly true that the neighboring arabs were stealing his cattle and burning his fields, so that he had to employ a full time watcher. They reckoned the police reckoned he'd brought it on himself. Hardly the actions of an institutionally discriminatory and corrupt police force, - I'd give a lot to have an english police force with such discernment.
I suppose I mainly met left-wing israelis, who were all generally uncomfortable about the actions of their government, - but all the same, many of them felt that although what the government and armed forces was doing was wrong, they didn't really have any alternative given the tremendous hatred that the palestinians had for jewish people. I remember asking why Israel couldn't make all palestinians citizens and have a one state solution, and being told by some that it would be a disaster since the palestinians would vote in a government that would persecute the jews, and on the other, quite reasonable jewish israelis telling me that this was exactly what most jewish israelis had once wanted, and offered to the palestinians, when they offered citizenship to all palestinians, only to have it rejected by most palestinians, who at the time were more interested in destroying Israel altogether rather than being citizens. If that's true, and I think it is, as various believable people told me it was, it seems to be something that's quite ignored by some people who can only see the palestinian point of view.
Most interesting of all was the comment of at least one guy I met who said he'd come to Israel as a zionist, and that's where his sympathies were, but, that these days, he thought the israeli government was in the pay of the rich elite and were cynically keeping the conflict going in order to distract political attention from their main policy of shafting the poor, both israeli and palestinian for the benefit of the rich.
But I wanted to come back to you on that post when I reread it because I don't think I gave it a proper response before, and besides which I wanted to make it clear again, that although I may have given an impression to the contrary, I do regard what the israeli government is doing in gaza as criminal. I know I said that already, but there you go, - really one-sided views about the whole thing these days do get my goat a bit.
Tbh I guess the israeli government want to get this done before Obama starts his presidency, in case he changes policy.
