Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

[teqniq]

Oxfam on the implications of banning UNWRA, none of them good:

Oxfam reaction to Israel's banning of UNRWA | Oxfam International

www.oxfam.org

 

[Knotted]

I know that for most of you the images of this "war" will be bombed out buildings, rescue teams searching in the rubble, men being marched off somewhere with their hands tied and blurry shaky images of bombs dropping. But if you spend much time on TikTok it will be something like this.



Thousands upon thousands of people begging for help, and a whole generation of social media users exposed to the realities of genocide. Thousands and thousands doing what little they can to help out.

It's a human catastrophe we're not supposed to think about or to sympathise with. It's supposed to be distant and relativised. But for millions it's something they see a glimpse of everyday.

 

[frogwoman]

From time to time I've been giving money to a woman in Gaza and her cousin who reached out to me on Goodreads - I don't really know what to do besides this. If you're on any public socials you can't really avoid seeing it. Obviously there are a lot of scammers and so I'm cautious about who I give money to.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

From time to time I've been giving money to a woman in Gaza and her cousin who reached out to me on Goodreads - I don't really know what to do besides this. If you're on any public socials you can't really avoid seeing it. Obviously there are a lot of scammers and so I'm cautious about who I give money to.

Yeah, someone (I assume) pretending to be a Palestinian journalist first asked me to share their posts on Facebook and then to give to a charity page (of course sending them a screenshot as proof). Needless to say, they were unfriended pretty quickly. I definitely need to get my butt in gear and send some more money to MAPs (or similar, should anyone have any recommendations).

 

[PTK]

I haven't been keeping up with this thread - I'm 16 pages behind. But I have been following events closely. We're obviously moving into a much more desperate stage now of ethnically cleansing the north of Gaza and limiting aid below starvation levels for the entire population.

My thinking is that this is the first step of settling Gaza and the removal of the entire Palestinian population as a security threat to that settlement project. And I think they will turn their full attention to the West Bank at some point. So there are going to be inevitable Palestinian retaliations in the West Bank and probably from Palestinian citizens of Israel which can fuel a project of "completing 1948". The slaughter and dispossession is just going to keep rolling on under the guise of the cycle of violence.

There's been a long standing Israeli pragmatic security argument against expanding settlements, including settling Gaza. But the flip side of that is that you can remove certain populations, settle the area and then after (attempted) retaliations have more security clamp downs to remove more populations and so on.

At the start I thought they were going to pummel Gaza into the ground, and wreak terrible vengeance on the civilian population and this would last a matter of months. And they have done this. But I now think we're looking at something bigger, if it's allowed to happen.

One thing I have contempt for are the reports that the Americans are expressing grave concerns. They have the ability to pull the plug on this at any point. We should think of Israel as America's proxy - the Israelis have their own agenda and act independently, but effectively they act with the blessings of the US government. This is America's (to a lesser extend Germany's, the UK's and all the rest) genocide and it could be going on for years or even decades. We could be talking millions of deaths and refugees.

Yep. Thee crimes against humanity were made in Washington DC, London, Berlin and Paris.

 

[Gramsci]

Inside Story on Al Jazeera had good programme on the UNWRA banning. Posted about it here.

Post in thread 'What are the international implications if Israel gets kicked out of the UN?' What are the international implications if Israel gets kicked out of the UN?

 

[brogdale]

This can apparently be said in Israeli media, but not ours?

 

[teqniq]

Sir Keir the spineless:

View attachment SaveTwitter.Net_JdRlL2lILQu9q-pe_(1024p).mp4

 

[HeAthen]

Sir Keir the spineless:

View attachment 449009

He really is a snivelling little shit.

 

[zahir]

An assessment of Biden's role in all this.

Why the Democrats were Israel's perfect partners in genocide

By masking support for Israel with humanitarian gestures and empathy for Palestinians, Biden and Harris have diluted pressure to end the war.

www.972mag.com

 

[Gramsci]

An assessment of Biden's role in all this.

Why the Democrats were Israel's perfect partners in genocide

By masking support for Israel with humanitarian gestures and empathy for Palestinians, Biden and Harris have diluted pressure to end the war.

www.972mag.com

Its the same problem here in this country.

A veneer of concerns about Israel state going to far. A few settlers banned etc A few moves to make out humanitarian concerns / international law count.

Makes it harder to oppose. Also can make those who go on demos etc appear unreasonable.

I think the article is correct. If Trump had been President it would have, perversely , been easier to organise a broad coalition against what Israel is doing in Gaza.

The article doesn't mention the so called Peace process or the two state solution. These also get trotted out. They mean very different things to different people. And its hard to question that.

 

[Gramsci]

I have American friend. On Israel he's always telling me well US politicians cant do much at this time due to XYZ. Election cycle etc.

Its not being a conspiracy loon to say- as the 972 article does - that the Israeli/ Zionist lobby in US can make or break political careers.

In that I have some sympathy for those in US who stick their heads above the parapet to become politicians.

 

[Pickman's model]

He really is a snivelling little shit.

Gives snivelling little shits a bad name

 

[HeAthen]

I have American friend. On Israel he's always telling me well US politicians cant do much at this time due to XYZ. Election cycle etc.

Its not being a conspiracy loon to say- as the 972 article does - that the Israeli/ Zionist lobby in US can make or break political careers.

In that I have some sympathy for those in US who stick their heads above the parapet to become politicians.

It's pretty clear that netanyahu is sticking two fingers up at Biden and Harris and pretty much daring them to take action against him, knowing full well that they won't while the election is going on. But hey, it's only Palestinians (and now Lebanese) being slaughtered so that's OK.

 

[teqniq]

But doing nothing but delay, obfuscate and deny the claims whilst also relying on the perpetrator to provide evidence. Absolutely fucking dismal.

U.S. inundated with claims that American arms killed Gaza civilians

 

[ID47]

‘The Arabs will disappear’: buoyant Israeli settlers eye return to Gaza

Once dismissed as the pipe dream of fringe extremists, the idea of resettling Gaza has gained momentum

www.theguardian.com

“We plan to take what we have acquired in the years of settling Judea and Samaria and to do the same thing here in Gaza,” Nachala’s chair, Daniella Weiss, a veteran of the settler movement, told those attending, using the Israeli nomenclature for the occupied West Bank.

“I want to tell you now, that in less than a year, you can call and ask me: ‘Did you succeed in fulfilling your dream?’ And the answer will be yes … Each of you will witness how Jews go to Gaza and Arabs will disappear from Gaza.”

Lebensraum. israeli edition.

 

[Gramsci]

More on our governments response to what's been happening in Gaza

David Lammy Sounds Increasingly Stupid for Refusing to Say ‘Genocide’ | Novara Media

The backlash against the home secretary's remarks shows how widely accepted it has become that Israel is committing a genocide in Gaza, writes Rivkah Brown.

novaramedia.com

I agree David Lammy is starting to come across to me as not the sharpest tool in the box.

Here is what he said,

.
“Those terms were largely used when millions of people lost their lives in crises like Rwanda, the second world war and the Holocaust, and the way that they are used now undermines the seriousness of that term.”

For starters it's not about numbers.

Starmer was eager to say this a few days ago

On Wednesday, Keir Starmer backed up Lammy, boasting that “I have never described what is going on in Gaza as genocide”.

There's another demo on Saturday.

It's remarks like this that make me want to go.

 

[quimcunx]

‘The Arabs will disappear’: buoyant Israeli settlers eye return to Gaza

Once dismissed as the pipe dream of fringe extremists, the idea of resettling Gaza has gained momentum

www.theguardian.com

“We plan to take what we have acquired in the years of settling Judea and Samaria and to do the same thing here in Gaza,” Nachala’s chair, Daniella Weiss, a veteran of the settler movement, told those attending, using the Israeli nomenclature for the occupied West Bank.

“I want to tell you now, that in less than a year, you can call and ask me: ‘Did you succeed in fulfilling your dream?’ And the answer will be yes … Each of you will witness how Jews go to Gaza and Arabs will disappear from Gaza.”

Lebensraum. israeli edition.

But, but sometimes people chant 'from the river to the sea palestine will be free' on marches, and I think we can all agree that's so much worse than anything israel has done.

Meanwhile I'm getting word that local banks have told a Palestinian NGO they will no longer accept any payments from abroad for the ngo. If so I expect that won't be the only one.

 

[ID47]

More on our governments response to what's been happening in Gaza

David Lammy Sounds Increasingly Stupid for Refusing to Say ‘Genocide’ | Novara Media

The backlash against the home secretary's remarks shows how widely accepted it has become that Israel is committing a genocide in Gaza, writes Rivkah Brown.

novaramedia.com

I agree David Lammy is starting to come across to me as not the sharpest tool in the box.

Here is what he said,


For starters it's not about numbers.

Starmer was eager to say this a few days ago


There's another demo on Saturday.

It's remarks like this that make me want to go.

Lammy, putting the fat, in zionist fat cats. David Lammy: Friend of Israel

 

[HeAthen]

Lammy, putting the fat, in zionist fat cats. David Lammy: Friend of Israel

Or more aptly the Cunt in "What a fucking malignant cunt".

 

[Gramsci]

Lammy, putting the fat, in zionist fat cats. David Lammy: Friend of Israel

When confronted by protesters about his position on Palestine, Lammy retorted that “power, not protest” is the suitable means for achieving a resolution to the war on Gaza.

Now Labour is in power it's doing the absolute minimum possible re Gaza

 

[HeAthen]

Now Labour is in power it's doing the absolute minimum possible re Gaza

Someone needs to point out to the prick that Israel isn't exactly in awe of the 'power' Lammy seems to think he has. I never did like him and he's shown that I wasn't mistaken in my view.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

Now Labour is in power it's doing the absolute minimum possible re Gaza

The official line from the Labour Party when questioned on the street is that contracts have been signed by the tories and our hands are tied. So either witless, spineless cunts or dickheads worshipping false idols. They only love money. Fuck em. Not worth a toss.

 

[HeAthen]

The official line from the Labour Party when questioned on the street is that contracts have been signed by the tories and our hands are tied. So either witless, spineless cunts or dickheads worshipping false idols. They only love money. Fuck em. Not worth a toss.

Yeah, fuck it. Let Israel take us to court for stopping arms exports. They don't respect the rule of law so why should we where they are concerned.

 

[Pickman's model]

Now Labour is in power it's doing the absolute minimum possible re Gaza

By no means. They're doing everything they can re gaza. Just for the wrong people.

 

[Gramsci]

On UNRWA.

Read this. Ex Labor Knesset members critique of UNWRA. Wrote a book on this with a Haaretz ex reporter. So this isn't the usual fr right stuff.

Why UNRWA is an obstacle to two states for two peoples: an interview with Einat Wilf

Einat Wilf is the co-author of The War of Return (with former Haaretz journalist Adi Schwartz). She talked to Fathom deputy editor Calev Ben-Dor about the book’s main claims, that peace is impossi...

fathomjournal.org

The crux of the issue she has with UNWRA is that it not only perpetuates the refugee problem ( from an Israeli standpoint) but acts as an incubator for terrorists/ keeps grievances of Palestinians going.

In her view what has stopped peace is the Right to Return.

She regards this as almost ridiculous.

If international community said to Palestinians yes you can have a state on pre 67 borders ( well she qualifies that by saying land swaps so Israel can get settlements near green line as part of Israel. This kind of thing is one of the problems I have with her argument ) but cannot have any right to return this would remove the biggest obstacle to peace.

She goes into a lot of stuff about refugee status and who should be counted as a refugee.

What she doesn't say it that when UN agreed that Israel join UN as a new state one requirement was that Palestinians be allowed to come back to their homes. Israel never honoured this.

The subtext is Israel is a state with Jewish majority. And so allowing Palestinians in would upset the demographic. That's what its really about but she is much to liberal to say that out loud.

What she says on UNRWA is interesting as I reckon its the kind of thing that Israel may push for.

Remove UNRWA.

Replace with UNHCR ( this however would not solve all her issues with refugee status)

Give funding for education and services to PA instead of UNWRA

Go through who and who is not a in supposed genuine refugee. This would reduce numbers. So a redefinition of who counts as refugee.

She's basically saying UNWRA has perpetuated at best a grievance culture at worst indirectly aided terrorism.

She talks about two states as though its two equal pieces of land. It's not. Palestinians will only get minority of the land.

She does not say anything about how this refugee crisis happened.

Except for this:

By Palestinians holding onto this idea of ‘Return’ for 70 years, they are essentially saying ‘the war isn’t over’. Their message is that even though they lost the battle to prevent Jews immigrating to the land, and the diplomatic battle to prevent the vote of partition in the UN, and the military battle against Israel’s birth, they are still continuing the war by other means. This is the idea of the ‘Right of Return’ of Arab ‘refugees’.

I think I prefer Moshe Dayan on this. He fought in that war. And understood why Palestinians would want to continue to fight ( peacefully or not) to get back their homes.

The lack of any reference to Palestinians being expelled from the land and after fighting ended being stopped from coming back to their homes and farms is how she sees things.

Its that they lost. So tough. And International community are partly to blame for the continence of the refugee problem.

 

[Gramsci]

Though giving money to PA would not be on the present far right governments agenda

Does look like however that more liberal Zionism and far right Zionism agree UNWRA is a problem.

 

[Pickman's model]

Though giving money to PA would not be on the present far right governments agenda

Does look like however that more liberal Zionism and far right Zionism agree UNWRA is a problem.

Or in summary zionism agrees

 

[teqniq]

Oops:

Israel targets Haaretz after publisher calls Palestinians 'freedom fighters'

Israeli newspaper faces restrictions after Amos Schocken denounces 'apartheid regime' in Israel and calls for sanctions

www.middleeasteye.net

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Oops:

Israel targets Haaretz after publisher calls Palestinians 'freedom fighters'

Israeli newspaper faces restrictions after Amos Schocken denounces 'apartheid regime' in Israel and calls for sanctions

www.middleeasteye.net

Ironically, of course, this kind of censorship and crackdown on dissent within the privileged group was exactly the kind of thing Apartheid South Africa did. 'Banning' orders and the like.