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Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

littlebabyjesus said:
Hasn't the ethnic cleansing already happened? Still happening of course in the West Bank. But placing 2 million people under siege and bombing them, ordering half of them to leave their homes in 24 hours or face death? That's attempting genocide. I don't think we should shy away from that word.
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Im in agreement with Knotted on this. Given Jewish history - I often see references to Israel of the kind of look at what they are doing its like the Nazis. Not comfortable with it.

As Knotted also said it ends up being a distraction.

I also think its not accurate. Reading Ilan Pappes book The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. he compare the ethnic cleansing war crimes in ex Yugoslavia with what happened in 1948. Looks at the evidence and legal definitions and comes to convincing conclusion what happened in 1948 constitutes ethnic cleansing. It was not just an unfortunate excess due to the confusion of ending the mandate.

Rashid Khalidi puts the case, after reading of early Zionists- that removal of Palestinian population to make way for Jews was integral part of Zionism and still is.

So whilst Im not keen of referring to what is happening as genocide I would , after reading the history, say that Zionism is a racist political project. Given that the behavior of the present elected Israeli politicians and what they have been saying about Palestinians in general ( monsters/ human animals) is no surprise. This is Zionism.

It was not that there was unfortunate level of violence that led to creation of State of Israel. The State of Israel has been an ongoing racist project. That is not blaming those born there. Not all of whom are happy about this and are trying to seek a peaceful solution. Ilan Pappe for one. Also the Jewish Israelis I referred to in recent posts.

Its the problem I have know after reading some of the history with IHRA definition and example which could arguably be used to say what Ive said above is anti semitic.

Its also not saying that this is unique to Jews. As the British Jewish Historian Tony Judt said Zionism came out of the 19c European growth in Nationalism. Which had its pros and cons.

Racism is not unique to the Zionist project. British empire treated its colonial subjects in racist fashion.

What is reprehensible is , as is happening now , is International community leaders are giving the hard line Zionist government blank cheque to do what they want.
 
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Gramsci said:
Im in agreement with Knotted on this. Given Jewish history - I often see references to Israel of the kind of look at what they are doing its like the Nazis. Not comfortable with it.

As Knotted also said it ends up being a distraction.

I also think its not accurate. Reading Ilan Pappes book The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. he compare the ethnic cleansing war crimes in ex Yugoslavia with what happened in 1948. Looks at the evidence and legal definitions and comes to convincing conclusion what happened in 1948 constitutes ethnic cleansing. It was not just an unfortunate excess due to the confusion of ending the mandate.

Rashid Khalidi puts the case, after reading of early Zionists- that removal of Palestinian population to make way for Jews was integral part of Zionism and still is.

So whilst Im not keen of referring to what is happening as genocide I would , after reading the history, say that Zionism is a racist political project. Given that the behavior of the present elected Israeli politicians and what they have been saying about Palestinians in general ( monsters/ human animals) is no surprise. This is Zionism.

It was not that there was unfortunate level of violence that led to creation of State of Israel. The State of Israel has been an ongoing racist project. That is not blaming those born there. Not all of whom are happy about this and are trying to seek a peaceful solution. Ilan Pappe for one. Also the Jewish Israelis I referred to in recent posts.

Its the problem I have know after reading some of the history with IHRA definition and example which could arguably be used to say what Ive said above is anti semitic.

Its also not saying that this is unique to Jews. As the British Jewish Historian Tony Judt said Zionism came out of the 19c European growth in Nationalism. Which had its pros and cons.

Racism is not unique to the Zionist project. British empire treated its colonial subjects in racist fashion.

What is reprehensible is , as is happening now , is International community leaders are giving the hard line Zionist government blank cheque to do what they want.
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Just to clarify I think what is happening is genocide or at least the beginning of it and I haven't qualms about using that word. However, I don't think Jewish suffering in the Nazi holocaust should be used to make the point.
 
ska invita said:
When I visited Auschwitz I was shocked - disgusted tbh - to see groups of young Israelis - IDF conscripts - walking around the site in full military fatigues, jack boots, and flying the Israeli flag. It was quite sickening as the strong lesson of visiting the camp is ABOLISH MILITARISM....that was not the lesson these young people were taking away

IMO a deliberate attempt to refuel, continue and remilitarise the trauma.

What's so great about graphic novel Maus is that it deals so honestly with the passing down of this trauma, though in that case within the context of an american jewish holocaust surviving family
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Why we fight rather more impressive than some Int Corp officer with a load of over head projector slides :(.
Also try to avoid having your entire being race genocided slightly more motivation than roaming the globe stealing people's country's *

* although squaddies and Grand theft planet it's debatable
 
Knotted said:
Just to clarify I think what is happening is genocide or at least the beginning of it and I haven't qualms about using that word. However, I don't think Jewish suffering in the Nazi holocaust should be used to make the point.
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Yes, someone mentioned the Armenian genocide earlier. That's a better historical comparison, with similar motivations and, potentially, disturbingly similar methods.
 
Was looking up the legal stuff and this came up from 2020. UN human rights rapporteur.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-rele...t-palestinians-illegal-and-affront-justice-un

Its not that this started yesterday. As he says in his report this was and is illegal. It is increasing tensions. Yet our leaders have sat back and ignored these reputable reports over the years. Then wonder why there is violence.

Also think some of our Labour and Tory politicians should pay more heed to advice from reputable sources like this.

Starmer for instance?

Collective punishment has been clearly forbidden under international humanitarian law through Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention. No exceptions are permitted."
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jebus the fail out doing itself atm dead baby's and the resident of Gaza see dying as better than leaving despise UN warning.


like it's the UN or the civilians fault not the people dropping bombs:mad:
 
Also this from the UN rapporteur in 2020. This is the context of the present violence.

What hes saying is that this is structural in the way the Israeli state works.


Lynk said it was disheartening that the demolition of Palestinian homes is still viewed by the Israeli political and legal leadership, including the Israeli High Court, as a permissible deterrent. "In fact, these demolitions only further contribute to an atmosphere of hate and vengeance, as the Israeli security leadership has itself acknowledged."
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I've been out working all day and with the radio on in the van. It's been a very hard listen on the whole. I turned down shouty politicians from both sides but the stories from ordinary folk- mass murder of civilians on both sides- have been almost unbearable to listen to, at times.

I'm not an expert on the history or politics of the Israel / Palestine conflict so refrain from commenting. But it did strike me listening to terrified people being told to evacuate a whole half of a country with nowhere to go, knowing the order is absurd- or the wails of Israelis burying their dead- that this is actually part of a wider war of rich sociopaths, armed to the teeth, against ordinary people who have no real means of fighting back, and it's a war that will intensify as climate change accelerates.

That somehow "western governments" and their proxies are lock step behind crimes against humanity, looking the other way as collective punishment- a war crime- is committed- beyond hypocritical notes of concern and "mind the civilians please Israel", beggars belief. The hardest was listening to Scottish First Minister Humza Yousaf's parents in law who are trapped there. A frightened elderly lady wondering why the world allows this to happen, in tears, on a voice mail call. We only know her because her relative is a minorly important politician in the UK context. But it was still a really hard listen, knowing everyone trapped in Gaza is in the same boat, running out of the basics of life and desperately worried for their immediate future.

The obnoxious clinging to "normality" elsewhere also grates. Maybe it shouldn't, but it does. The pictures from the region in the last few days have been the apocalypse moving from a walk to a medium jog in a few days.

Sickening, worrying times.
 
Im so angry now Im going to go on the demo tomorrow. Not walking all the way but will be there. My partner got an email from friend warning people to be careful when going to attend in case police try to stop people. Ive been hearing it could be big.

Given our Labour and Tory politicians attitude and the Home Secretary egging on police to arrest people Im going.

Im more livid at our own political class than anything else.
 
Cid said:
You need to give people a heads up that a podcast with Alistair Campbell, Rory Stewart and Yuval Noah Harari won't piss them off nearly as much as they think it will.

e2a: it will definitely piss people off in parts.
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I expect people to be a bit more adult than that.
 
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