Sorry I posted my response to another thread here to try and derailing it. The context was about why using language implying destruction of Israel is counter-productive and we can stop further encroachment in Gaza and West Bank but can't realistically undo what was done in 1948. PTK asked why we can remove settlers from West Bank who've been there since the 60s but not those in the rest of Israel who've been there since 1948. Your point about international law is maybe a better response.
Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion
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Sorry I posted my response to another thread here to try and derailing it. The context was about why using language implying destruction of Israel is counter-productive and we can stop further encroachment in Gaza and West Bank but can't realistically undo what was done in 1948. PTK asked why we can remove settlers from West Bank who've been there since the 60s but not those in the rest of Israel who've been there since 1948. Your point about international law is maybe a better response.
I wasn't sure what your point was by posting that and thought it complemented my post. Yes they have a siege mentality and that's why they behave the way they do. Feeding the siege mentality by talking about dismembering Israel doesn't help even if what you actually mean is a 1 state or 2 state solution.
Withdrawal of settlers in the West Bank isn't genocidal, but I mean you can't remove everyone from the rest of Israel. That would in practise be genocidal as it would only happen by force.
_Russ_
Never not Knowingly Misunderstood
Do you have a theory how that might be achieved without using extreme violence against the Israeli invaders?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
No one is talking about removing everyone from the rest of Israel. Great strawman tho.
I didn't say anyone did. I just said it isn't possible and a solution requires a critical mass of Israelis willing to seek compromise. Which is less likely to happen if we feed their siege mentality and make them feel threatened, which is what talking about ending Israel does. Even if it isn't what people mean it is how it is perceived.
mojo pixy
○-<{[°_°]}>-○
I've actually offered no opinion on this, and nor will I. You don't need to coerce anything from me or guess or lie. The circle jerk is complete without my participation.
Well, you offered the opinion that the UN definition is meaningful. And the UN definition pretty unambiguously and unequivocally labels Israel’s actions as genocide.
Israel isn't going to be driven out pf the West Bank and Gaza militarily. The Palestinians are overwhelmingly outgunned.
Boycotting Israel and making them a pariah - with clearly defined conditions on how not to be - is one way. But it is only going to work if a significant number of Israelis are also willing to push for an end to the violence and to try and compromise. Talking about destruction of Israel and "extreme violence" is only going to make Israelis double down. Our own mojo pixy is someone who I'm sure genuinely wants Israel to compromise and genuinely wants an end to violence but also feels some affinity and connection to Israel as they are Jewish. If we can't make someone like that feel like they can be part of a movement to free Palestine then the situation is hopeless.
mojo pixy
○-<{[°_°]}>-○
I offered the UN's opinion on what 'genocide' means. At no point did I offer my own. Prod me all you like, there isn't any more to add.
Of all the opinions on what ‘genocide’ means, you quoted that one. That is offering an opinion.
mojo pixy
○-<{[°_°]}>-○
Yes, the UN's opinion. That's the working international definition, however I, you, mahmoud abbas, benjamin netanyahu or anyone else might feel about it, whether we agree or not, or just don't know.
mojo pixy
○-<{[°_°]}>-○
The weird thing is, I've always been incredibly critical of Israel. Always loudly condemned the shit that country has done, even while I was there (and that's not comfortable, I promise). I'm still disgusted by the Israeli reaction to that "black sabbath" as they call it. Anyone is free to check my earliest posts on this thread, for a sense of 'how it started'...
And yet 'how it's going' is that I'm mostly feeling like an evil, genocidal zionist because of the responses (not these today but previously) I've had to some really mild, measured and nuanced - also quite well informed if i say so myself - posts over the last year or so.
I guess what I'm saying is, this thread has apparently radicalised me. Good going guys
And yet 'how it's going' is that I'm mostly feeling like an evil, genocidal zionist because of the responses (not these today but previously) I've had to some really mild, measured and nuanced - also quite well informed if i say so myself - posts over the last year or so.
I guess what I'm saying is, this thread has apparently radicalised me. Good going guys
Reading this thread has made you want to slaughter children in their beds?The weird thing is, I've always been incredibly critical of Israel. Always loudly condemned the shit that country has done, even while I was there (and that's not comfortable, I promise). I'm still disgusted by the Israeli reaction to that "black sabbath" as they call it. Anyone is free to check my earliest posts on this thread, for a sense of 'how it started'...
And yet 'how it's going' is that I'm mostly feeling like an evil, genocidal zionist because of the responses (not these today but previously) I've had to some really mild, measured and nuanced - also quite well informed if i say so myself - posts over the last year or so.
I guess what I'm saying is, this thread has apparently radicalised me. Good going guys
A radicalised zionist.The weird thing is, I've always been incredibly critical of Israel. Always loudly condemned the shit that country has done, even while I was there (and that's not comfortable, I promise). I'm still disgusted by the Israeli reaction to that "black sabbath" as they call it. Anyone is free to check my earliest posts on this thread, for a sense of 'how it started'...
And yet 'how it's going' is that I'm mostly feeling like an evil, genocidal zionist because of the responses (not these today but previously) I've had to some really mild, measured and nuanced - also quite well informed if i say so myself - posts over the last year or so.
I guess what I'm saying is, this thread has apparently radicalised me. Good going guys
Well done.
Lovely people.
mojo pixy
○-<{[°_°]}>-○
"Apparently"
apparently
[ə'pærəntli]
1. adverb
You use apparently to indicate that the information you are giving is something that you have heard, but you are not certain that it is true.
[vagueness]
Oil prices fell this week, apparently because of over-production.
Synonyms: it appears that, allegedly, it seems that, on the face of it
kabbes
ID47
apparently
[ə'pærəntli]
1. adverb
You use apparently to indicate that the information you are giving is something that you have heard, but you are not certain that it is true.
[vagueness]
Oil prices fell this week, apparently because of over-production.
Synonyms: it appears that, allegedly, it seems that, on the face of it
kabbes
ID47
On the face of it, you’ve been radicalised? On the face of what? You’re the one saying it — you “apparently” believe yourself to have been radicalised.
mojo pixy
○-<{[°_°]}>-○
You're not usually this obtuse, kabbes , what I mean is that my views on Israel haven't changed neither in the last year nor the last 20 years, but here, on this thread, among these voices, I "appear" to be a very partisan, extreme, let's say even radical zionist.
Nothing I've posted supports that, but who cares?
Nothing I've posted supports that, but who cares?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Fwiw you don't appear at all like that to me. You do appear to me to be conflicted in your feelings and views on Israel.
mojo pixy
○-<{[°_°]}>-○
I'm not conflicted at all. I'm quite at one with all my views on both zionism and its main creation, while at the same time I wholeheartedly condemn a lot of its actual behaviour. Here at U75 though, anything less than some kind of anti-zionist orthodoxy is pretty much unwelcome full stop, and anyway there's too much grandstanding (it's the internet after all) so even when something nuanced gets posted, it'll be torn apart by ill-informed ideologues and then the thread moves on.
Maybe today's been a long day (it has) and I've been burned here before by trying to explain myself too much. Maybe at this point the less said, the better. I'm trying to find a good place to stop for a while so maybe here, now.
Maybe today's been a long day (it has) and I've been burned here before by trying to explain myself too much. Maybe at this point the less said, the better. I'm trying to find a good place to stop for a while so maybe here, now.
I see. Maybe what’s confusing me is that I’ve never once accused you of being extreme or radical and nor do I think of you that way. To be honest, I’m not that interested in you as an individual at all. I’m interested in the thing we’re talking about, which is the genocide being perpetrated by Israel. If you have an argument that it isn’t a genocide, I’d very much like to hear it. But not because of some personal grudge. Only because I can’t imagine what such an argument would be.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
What your posts are leaving out is what Palestinians feel. And what the rest of the population of the middle east feel. As they have an affinity with Palestinians.
If you talk to people from middle east or people of Palestinian descent the conversations is different.
Some of the posting here is foregrounding what Israelis feel.
Not those who have suffered over the years displacement / ethnic cleansing and if inside Israel as second class citizens. As Amnesty International report points out the Apartheid system is in Israel as well as in the occupied territories.
But as another poster pointed out on the Syrian thread politics is about power and the "left" goes on about morality.
What I see in the so called West is that Israel far from being treated as a state that is unfairly picked on gets the opposite treatment from those who matter. It gets military, diplomatic and imo moral support.
I don't think I need to make many examples. Starmer and the grown up Labour party here and Biden in US
Going on about how how talking about destruction / dismemberment will only make Israelis double down begs the question why ( as Palestinians are being destroyed and dismembered in actual practise ) this has never worked for Palestinians.
The answer is perhaps , If one follows the politics is about power, is that in practise Palestinians don't count. They don't have nuclear weapons and don't have a well armed military. They do not have support of USA. A country that matters.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I hardly think that is true.
Imo the opposite is the case.
See recent abuse on Syrian thread.
Its just that those posters don't come on here.
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mojo pixy
○-<{[°_°]}>-○
I think you probably can, but you'd rather have someone else do it so that you can throw things at them, which is more fun.
mojo pixy
○-<{[°_°]}>-○
Yeah Spymaster (not tagged as I think he has this thread on ignore anyway) isn't exactly the consensus around here though. Indeed he's frequently accused of trolling.
No, I can’t. It’s so preposterously obvious that all the criteria of the UN definition are met that I am genuinely bewildered what it could be. I don’t even understand how you can say that you have no opinion about it. It seems like not having an opinion about whether the sky is up.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
And on ill informed ideologues
Just looked at it appears I'm top poster here.
Based mainly on my reading. If that makes one an ideologue.
An anecdote. I works sometime late night at a company.
Went there and had my Palestinian badge on my bag. ( I normally don't if I'm working ) . The security guards are all from a middle eastern country. One noticed my badge and asked me where I got it. A chat about Palestine started.
Most of opinions I've put up here are standard across middle east peoples. Being anti Zionist is normal. Its not a western "lefty" thing. Nor is a general hostility towards Israel a western lefty obsession. Why I say if middle east countries became genuine democracies Id be worried if I was Israeli. Israel is better off with weak states or ones run by corrupt dictators who one can deal with
In fact if one looks at recent history of the western left there was support for it ( Labour Zionism - Israel) post war which over the years Israel has squandered. It wasn't that the left ,whatever that is, was always against Israel. Israel did a pretty good job to put people off it over the years itself.
If being anti Zionist make one an ill informed ideologue then so are people from middle east.
Just looked at it appears I'm top poster here.
Based mainly on my reading. If that makes one an ideologue.
An anecdote. I works sometime late night at a company.
Went there and had my Palestinian badge on my bag. ( I normally don't if I'm working ) . The security guards are all from a middle eastern country. One noticed my badge and asked me where I got it. A chat about Palestine started.
Most of opinions I've put up here are standard across middle east peoples. Being anti Zionist is normal. Its not a western "lefty" thing. Nor is a general hostility towards Israel a western lefty obsession. Why I say if middle east countries became genuine democracies Id be worried if I was Israeli. Israel is better off with weak states or ones run by corrupt dictators who one can deal with
In fact if one looks at recent history of the western left there was support for it ( Labour Zionism - Israel) post war which over the years Israel has squandered. It wasn't that the left ,whatever that is, was always against Israel. Israel did a pretty good job to put people off it over the years itself.
If being anti Zionist make one an ill informed ideologue then so are people from middle east.
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It isn't about foregrounding the feelings of Israelis, but I just can't see any solution without an Israeli peace movement emerging. However unlikely that may be, it's almost impossible to imagine a change in Israel without this being an important component.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
What is a cm of I?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
There was a peace movement, so we're told. What makes you think a peace movement needs to emerge? I can see several possible solutions without a pm emerging. Maybe you're too blinkered
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