Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Hamas/Israel conflict: news and discussion

i agree with all of that... this is a form of ethnic state creation that we are witnessing that isnt unique in history....doesnt make it right though
No, but as it happened 75 years ago, there's nothing to be done about it. What can be done is to stop the slaughter that is currently happening and support the right of all to life, liberty and happiness. That includes the Bedouin hostages being held by Hamas who are too Israeli for their kidnappers to care about and too marginal and Muslim for the Israeli regime to care about.

 
I don't see how Zionism is any different from all the other irredentists ideologies that led to the creation of political entities in the twentieth century, particularly after the two world wars. State creation after the collapse of the Empires of the nineteenth century led to expulsions resettlement and massacres in many places as well as the conscious efforts to create new national identities with the imposition of national languages and often a state religion.

Israel is not substantially different, in that sense, as an entity than: Turkey, Pakistan, Serbia, Bosnia, Czechia, Syria, Bangladesh, Greece, or Poland.

Like in those other places, Israeli identity is something that has developed over the past 75-100 years. 78% of Israel Jews were born in Israel and the vast majority will be either monolingual or bilingual Hebrew speakers and have a sense of having an Israeli national/cultural identity in the same way that I, or anyone else has a sense of national and cultural identity. No Israeli Jew under the age of 90 bears any responsibility for the creation of the state. Does having some personal commitment to that state make them Zionists and consequently in some way depraved?

Changing topic, The white, European, bourgeois coloniser narrative that is pushed by lots of bourgeois Europeans ignores a couple of issues. Firstly, the Holocaust was not a unique occurrence. It was the culmination of centuries of persecution and murder of European Jews. The Russian pogroms from the 1880s led many to see settling in Palestine as a way of guaranteeing their own and their families safety as did the overt antiSemitism of most European states in the early twentieth century. Jews were pushed out of Europe. It was made clear to them that they had no rights to exist there and live normal lives.

Secondly, the "white settler" narrative ignores the fact that a large proportion of Israeli Jews are not of European heritage but have ancestors who come from North Africa, the Middle East and other parts of Asia. Many of them refugees from the persecution that followed the creation of Israel. There is no foreseeable way that Israeli Jews of Iraqi, Libyan, Afghani, Saudi or Yemeni origin could return to those countries.

Israel IMO is hardly different from the USA actually. A settler state founded and filled on other people's land by people escaping religious persecution elsewhere. Israel isn't the first of these, and I doubt it'll be the last.
 
The founders of Israel were overwhelmingly from Europe. Immigration from elsewhere mostly came later.

The, Founders" were from a. population mostly of European origin who had faced denigration persecution and often murder from Russia in the East to France and Britain in the West. The Spanish and Portuguese had of course, already implemented their final solution several centuries before. Prior to WW1 there was also a fair amount of voluntary migration of Jews within the Ottoman Empire from Yemen to Palestine.

Most of those who came later from MENA were also refugees who had no option about leaving, although the Israeli elites had no objection to them coming as long as they knew their place.

Anyway, the founders are long dead and we don't hold people responsible for the acts, even the criminal acts of their ancestors.
 
Last edited:
I don't see how Zionism is any different from all the other irredentists ideologies that led to the creation of political entities in the twentieth century, particularly after the two world wars. State creation after the collapse of the Empires of the nineteenth century led to expulsions resettlement and massacres in many places as well as the conscious efforts to create new national identities with the imposition of national languages and often a state religion.

Israel is not substantially different, in that sense, as an entity than: Turkey, Pakistan, Serbia, Bosnia, Czechia, Syria, Bangladesh, Greece, or Poland.

Like in those other places, Israeli identity is something that has developed over the past 75-100 years. 78% of Israel Jews were born in Israel and the vast majority will be either monolingual or bilingual Hebrew speakers and have a sense of having an Israeli national/cultural identity in the same way that I, or anyone else has a sense of national and cultural identity. No Israeli Jew under the age of 90 bears any responsibility for the creation of the state. Does having some personal commitment to that state make them Zionists and consequently in some way depraved?

Changing topic, The white, European, bourgeois coloniser narrative that is pushed by lots of bourgeois Europeans ignores a couple of issues. Firstly, the Holocaust was not a unique occurrence. It was the culmination of centuries of persecution and murder of European Jews. The Russian pogroms from the 1880s led many to see settling in Palestine as a way of guaranteeing their own and their families safety as did the overt antiSemitism of most European states in the early twentieth century. Jews were pushed out of Europe. It was made clear to them that they had no rights to exist there and live normal lives.

Secondly, the "white settler" narrative ignores the fact that a large proportion of Israeli Jews are not of European heritage but have ancestors who come from North Africa, the Middle East and other parts of Asia. Many of them refugees from the persecution that followed the creation of Israel. There is no foreseeable way that Israeli Jews of Iraqi, Libyan, Afghani, Saudi or Yemeni origin could return to those countries.

In fact its Israelis like Ilan Pappe who have done some of the most definitive work on Israel as a settler colonial society. Along with Palestinian historians.

So no this was not put forward by white bourgeois Europeans.

( not the first time this kind of argument has been put on this thread. It comes across as the same kinds of arguments the right in this country use when acedemic here write about this countries imperial / colonial history)

Nor does a historian like Pappe argue that Zionism is unique in settler colonialism. Quite the opposite.

The thing about the State of Israel was not just that it was founded on an act of ethnic cleansing in 48 but that this has continued afterwards. To the present day Palestinians are being forced off their land in Wet Bank.

Its been an ongoing process. With resistance by Palestinians. Hope everyone can agree that people have right to resist occupation and loss of land. The principle of that. Whilst disagreeing with methods used.

Also it might help if you yourself move from looking at this from a eurocentric point of view to see how Palestinians see it.

There is a way out of this which is not about kicking out the Israeli Jews who have grown up and live their now. That is a one state solution where both Palestinians and Jewish people live as equal citizens. A different kind of state.

The present state for example has the Nation State Law. Which goes against any idea of equality in Israel.

But anyway this is an exercise in whataboutery. Had this before.
 
Last edited:
And who has the real power to do that? Clue: they just vetoed a ceasefire at the UN
"They" vetoed against and the British abstained and the Russians, who are strong supporters of Netanyahu voted for. Anyway a UN vote, whilst desirable, would not in itself stopped the Israelis from murdering Palestinians.
 
In fact its Israelis like Ilan Pappe who have done some of the most definitive work on Israel as a settler colonial society. Along with Palestinian historians.

So no this was not put forward by white bourgeois Europeans.

( not the first time this kind of argument has been put on this thread. It comes across as the same kinds of arguments the right in this country use when acedemic here write about this countries imperial / colonial history)

Nor does a historian like Pappe argue that Zionism is unique in settler colonialism. Quite the opposite.

The thing about the State of Israel was not just that it was founded on an act of ethnic cleansing in 48 but that this has continued afterwards. To the present day Palestinians are being forced off their land in Wet Bank.

Also it might help if you yourself move from looking at this from a eurocentric point of view to see how Palestinians see it.

There is a way out of this which is not about kicking out the Israeli Jews who have grown up and live their now. That is a one state solution where both Palestinians and Jewish people live as equal citizens. A different kind of state.

The present state for example has the Nation State Law. Which goes against any idea of equality in Israel.

But anyway this is an exercise in whataboutery. Had this before.
I think thought you were ignoring me, and, anyway, if you think my posts are all whataboutery, why respond?
 
looked to me like you were just giving the israeli point of view
If your "you" is me, perhaps you could explain in which way? I think the Israeli regime is as vile and not that much different from many of it's neighbouring regimes. Syria would be a very clear example of a regime that oppresses and when it can get away with it, exterminates religious and ethnic groups it doesn't like.
 
Make yourselves bald and cut off your hair for your pampered children; make yourselves as bald as the eagle, for they have gone from you into exile” (Micah 1.16)
 

Attachments

  • IMG_1602.jpeg
    IMG_1602.jpeg
    38.1 KB · Views: 1
Make yourselves bald and cut off your hair for your pampered children; make yourselves as bald as the eagle, for they have gone from you into exile” (Micah 1.16)

Look please, nicely, stop posting bible stuff. It's pointless, or at least it's divisive and unhelpful. Netanyahu ffs - cynical, materialistic, corrupt old Bibi, even he quoted scripture. That should tell us all we need to know about quoting scripture with regard to the modern state of Israel. So let's leave it the fuck out.
 
Presumably it was part of god's plan, what with everything being part of god's plan.

Most of the old testament is just a big game of tag, you're it but with genocide.

In 66 CE, the First Jewish–Roman War began. The revolt was put down by the future Roman emperors Vespasian and Titus. In the Siege of Jerusalem in 70 CE, the Romans destroyed much of the Temple in Jerusalem and, according to some accounts, plundered artifacts from the Temple, such as the Menorah. Yohanan ben Zakkai, who opposed the war, negotiated with Vespasian for the safety of he and his supporters.[17] Impressed by Yohanan's bravery and (ultimately correct) prediction that Vespasian would one day be Emperor, he granted them safe passage to and the right to settle in Yavneh, which as a result would go on to become an important cultural center of Jewish life in the Empire.

Jews continued to live in their land in significant numbers, the Kitos War of 115–117 notwithstanding, until Julius Severus ravaged Judea while putting down the Bar Kokhba revolt of 132–136. 985 villages were destroyed and most of the Jewish population of central Judaea was essentially wiped out – killed, sold into slavery, or forced to flee.[18] Banished from Jerusalem, which was renamed Aelia Capitolina, the Jewish population now centered on Galilee,[19] initially at Yavneh.

After the Jewish-Roman wars (66–135), Hadrian changed the name of Iudaea province to Syria Palaestina and Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina in an attempt to erase the historical ties of the Jewish people to the region.[20] Though other explanations have also been proposed,[21] and an alternative theory is that the renaming efforts preceded and helped precipitate the rebellion.[22]In addition, after 70, Jews and Jewish Proselytes were only allowed to practice their religion if they paid the Jewish tax, and after 135 were barred from Jerusalem except for the day of Tisha B'Av.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CH1
Make yourselves bald and cut off your hair for your pampered children; make yourselves as bald as the eagle, for they have gone from you into exile” (Micah 1.16)
(apologies to mojo pixy ) Micah was active in Judah from before the fall of Israel in 722 BC and experienced the devastation brought by Sennacherib's invasion of Judah in 701 BC. He prophesied from approximately 737 to 696 BC. Micah was from Moresheth, also called Moresheth-Gath, a small town in southwest Judah. (Wiki) : Not relevant to the case in point.
 
The, Founders" were from a. population mostly of European origin who had faced denigration persecution and often murder from Russia in the East to France and Britain in the West.
Look at it from a Palestinian point of view. Those people murdered them and marched them off their land at gunpoint to turn them and their children and their grandchildren and their great-grandchildren into refugees whose lives are controlled by the very same people who kicked them off their land in the first place. And this denigration, this persecution, these ghettos, this murder is ongoing. The founders may be dead, but their project lives on and is as vicious as ever.

Had Palestinians been persecuting the European Jews who evicted them? Or denigrating them? Why is it down to the Palestinian people to suffer for European sins?
 
No, but as it happened 75 years ago, there's nothing to be done about it. What can be done is to stop the slaughter that is currently happening and support the right of all to life, liberty and happiness. That includes the Bedouin hostages being held by Hamas who are too Israeli for their kidnappers to care about and too marginal and Muslim for the Israeli regime to care about.

wow. What's the cutoff point? Could something have been done about it 1 year afterwards? 10? This is shameful apologism. Even sillier than pretending Israel isn't a settler colonialist state.
 
I think you could have added that in any case prior to all this Roman misfortune there were more Jews in Alexandria than in Israel - so much so that the Septuagint Bible they were using was in Greek not Hebrew.
Somebody upthread was saying Israeli immigrants were speaking European languages (Yiddish/German I assume they meant).
There are Rabbis aplenty opposed to Zionism who swear blind on YouTube that the use of Hebrew as the official language for the state of modern Israel was an affectation - and that Hebrew was rightly considered a sacramental language for religious not everyday use.
 
There are Rabbis aplenty opposed to Zionism who swear blind on YouTube that the use of Hebrew as the official language for the state of modern Israel was an affectation - and that Hebrew was rightly considered a sacramental language for religious not everyday use.
The revival of Hebrew as a spoken language was part of the political project of nation-building - a way to unify the Yiddish-speakers, the Ladino-speakers and those speaking other languages who shared in common the use of Hebrew in their religious ceremonies. Calling it an affectation rather glosses over the reasons it was done.
 
There are Rabbis aplenty opposed to Zionism who swear blind on YouTube that the use of Hebrew as the official language for the state of modern Israel was an affectation - and that Hebrew was rightly considered a sacramental language for religious not everyday use.

I was in (sadly no longer there) Sharon's bakery on Stamford Hill Broadway, a long-time ago. We were talking in Hebrew because it turned out Sharon the owner grew up on the same road in Tel Aviv that I lived on there. Some hassidim came in, ordered a load of food in English and when they left I expressed surprise that they hadn't also spoken to him in Hebrew, since those religious guys are all fluent in it. He told me, they won't do everyday business in Hebrew, and because he doesn't know Yiddish they speak to him in English. That was a window into an ultra-religious world I'd never encountered before.

/aside
 
This nation-building stuff is still very much current and ongoing. Since 2018, Hebrew has been the sole official language of Israel. Arabic is still recognised but is subordinate.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PTK
If your "you" is me, perhaps you could explain in which way? I think the Israeli regime is as vile and not that much different from many of it's neighbouring regimes. Syria would be a very clear example of a regime that oppresses and when it can get away with it, exterminates religious and ethnic groups it doesn't like.
Apologies you seemed to be giving the Israeli view of how they ended up in Israel, so not defending them just giving their view of the history which I thought was valuable. Posters seem to be thinking you're defending Israel, though, which seems a mistake since it would deter other people from adding to that 'side' of the argument.
 
wow. What's the cutoff point? Could something have been done about it 1 year afterwards? 10? This is shameful apologism. Even sillier than pretending Israel isn't a settler colonialist state.

It's exactly the same cut off point that exists for descendants of refugees from Pakistan and India expelled during the partition and more or less for descendants of Poles expelled from the former Polish Eastern territories and for the descendants of Germans expelled from what is now Western Poland and the Sudetenland. Maybe it might have seemed more equitable if the Jews had been given Bavaria, but they weren't. If you imagine that the creation was somehow unique, you buy into the myth that Jews are uniquely problematic

The reality is that what happened during and after WW2 was horrendous but it isn't something that can be easily changed 80 years later. There are no political magic wands.
 
It's exactly the same cut off point that exists for descendants of refugees from Pakistan and India expelled during the partition and more or less for descendants of Poles expelled from the former Polish Eastern territories and for the descendants of Germans expelled from what is now Western Poland and the Sudetenland. Maybe it might have seemed more equitable if the Jews had been given Bavaria, but they weren't. If you imagine that the creation was somehow unique, you buy into the myth that Jews are uniquely problematic

The reality is that what happened during and after WW2 was horrendous but it isn't something that can be easily changed 80 years later. There are no political magic wands.
Are those descendants of refugees from Pakistan and India and Poland themselves also refugees?

That's one point that you miss here. These are not just descendants of refugees in Gaza. They are themselves refugees. It's a status you can inherit if you are born stateless.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tim
Finally found the link I was thinking of about rates of out-migration in wartime Israel:


IDF is already reporting desertion:

 
Are those descendants of refugees from Pakistan and India and Poland themselves also refugees?

That's one point that you miss here. These are not just descendants of refugees in Gaza. They are themselves refugees. It's a status you can inherit if you are born stateless.
The Muhajir (descendants of Muslim refugees from India) have Pakistani citizenship but that hasn't prevented them being persecuted and thousands being massacred.

 
Look please, nicely, stop posting bible stuff. It's pointless, or at least it's divisive and unhelpful. Netanyahu ffs - cynical, materialistic, corrupt old Bibi, even he quoted scripture. That should tell us all we need to know about quoting scripture with regard to the modern state of Israel. So let's leave it the fuck out.
It wasn’t the Bible but as you were.
 
The Muhajir (descendants of Muslim refugees from India) have Pakistani citizenship but that hasn't prevented them being persecuted and thousands being massacred.
Other bad shit happens around the world. And nobody supports that. Israeli bad shit is supported and enthusiastically enabled by the US and British governments, to name but two. I just don't see this whataboutery as helpful. Nobody is denying that other injustices exist, but given that millions of Palestinians today are refugees, it is clearly of huge importance to understand why they are refugees. And that means going back to 1948 and the Nakba. It's not just some bad shit that's passed into history and that nobody can do anything about. It is the explanation of the existence of millions of refugees today. And there's plenty that could be done about it given the will to do it.
 
Back
Top Bottom