Freemasons in the UK, a general discussion

[ViolentPanda]

Savile himself was a (highly) observant Catholic. I'd be very surprised if he was a mason as well. There's only so much ritual a person can handle.

And, to be frank, Catholic ritual has a great deal of innate beauty, whereas Masonic ritual is well-dressed but basically utilitarian.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Fair play, spy. Truth is that it's far less sinister and/or exciting than it's sometimes made out to be, I guess.

Still seems a weird thing to want to join, tbh.

 

[DotCommunist]

The leadership of the Roman Catholic Church has long been an outspoken critic of Freemasonry, first prohibiting Catholics from joining the fraternity in 1738. Since then, the Vatican has made several pronouncements forbidding Catholics from becoming Freemasons under threat of excommunication. Although there was some confusion of the issue following Vatican Council II, the Church still prohibits membership in the Freemasons because it believes that the principles of Freemasonry and the teaching of the Catholic Church are irreconcilable. A 1983 statement from the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith approved by Pope John Paul II stated "The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion." and "... membership in them (Masonic associations) remains forbidden."

wikipedo

 

[littlebabyjesus]

wikipedo

 

[ViolentPanda]

I know that his family were religious catholics, didn't know he had been as well.

He was given a papal knighthood. He wouldn't have been if he'd not been an observant Catholic.

 

[free spirit]

So, despite the large amounts of open hostility I've faced in the last 48 hours on this site, I'm going to stick my neck out and outline roughly how I believe the free mason side of things to work in relation to cover ups etc.

The starting point for any potential cover up comes from the access freemasonry gives members to all levels of other members, as confirmed by spy, which enables any freemason to have access to other freemasons who might be in the police, press, judiciary, legal profession, or politics in a way that none free masons simply can't do.

This could be done directly, or they could approach their lodge master, mentor or any other more well connected member in their lodge for assistance.

6. BEHAVIOUR TOWARDS A STRANGE BROTHER
But if you discover him to be a true and genuine brother, you are to respect him accordingly; and if he is in want you must relieve him if you can, or else direct him how he may be relieved. You must employ him some days, or else recommend him to be employed. But you are not charged to do beyond your ability; only to prefer a poor brother that is a good man and true before any other poor people in the same circumstances

The freemasons rules fairly clearly state that any freemason approached by a fellow freemason, even if they're a stranger, is to be respected - which can be translated as being a presumption that they are telling the truth (effectively on their honour as a freemason).

It then clearly states that there is an obligation upon them to aid that fellow freemason if they're in a position to aid them, or to direct them to someone else who can aid them.

I don't actually believe that a cover up starts with the accused approaching another freemason and saying 'I've been abusing kids for 20 years, please could you aid me in avoiding justice'

What I can see happening though is that one freemason approaches another for help and saying something along the lines of

'I'm the victim of a malicious campaign to ruin my reputation following entirely false accusations made by a few young thugs that I've had to lock away over the years, could you please help me to set the record straight / stop these malicious accusations from ruining my life'

The freemason who's been approached in this way is then essentially obliged to take their fellow mason at their word, and assist them if they can.

The full mechanism for any cover up though is in the next bit

And if any of them do you injury, you must apply to your own or his lodge; and from thence you may appeal to the grand lodge at the quarterly communication, as has been the antient laudable conduct of our forefathers in every nation; never taking a legal course but when the case cannot be otherwise decided, and patiently listening to the honest and friendly advice of master and fellows, when they would prevent your going to law with strangers, or would excite you to put a speedy period to all law-suits, that so you may find the affair of masonry with the more alacrity and success; but with respect to brothers or fellows at law, the master and brethren should kindly offer their mediation, which ought to be thankfully submitted to by the contending brethren; and if that submission is impracticable, they must, however, carry on their process, or law-suit, without wrath and rancour (not in the common way), saying or doing nothing which may hinder brotherly love and good offices to be renewed and continued, that all may see the benign influence of masonry, as all true masons have done from the beginning of the world, and will do to the end of time.

so essentially, if at a later date it was discovered that the original mason had lied and obtained assistance under false pretences in order to get them off the hook for something, then the first recourse of the freemason who discovers this isn't to go to the police, but to report this internally within the Freemason organisation, and for it to be dealt with as an internal matter first, and only sent to be dealt with by the standard legal process after it had been dealt with internally.

This is exactly the sort of mechanism that resulted in the Catholic church covering up for, and trying to deal internally with paedophile priests in their ranks for decades.

Frankly it fucking stinks of being the exact conditions necessary for long term coverups of paedophile activity by it's membership to occur.

Take the internal conditions for a cover up detailed above, then consider the fact that the top freemason in the North Wales area (who was also on the police board, and deputy to the guy who was the head of the JP / magistrates in the area) had a son who was an active paedophile, accused of molesting some of the boys from the care homes and basically using them as rent boys outside of the homes... and that the copper in immediate charge of the area covering the care homes was an admitted mason, as well as having multiple accusations of abuse made against him (that were found not to be proven in court mind)...

Take all this together and then see if you can still convince yourselves that there's definitely nothing that deserves investigating around the accusations of a freemason link to the coverup of this widespread systematic abuse, and the protection of the certain abusers but not others.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Fair play, spy. Truth is that it's far less sinister and/or exciting than it's sometimes made out to be, I guess.

Still seems a weird thing to want to join, tbh.

I've always applied the Groucho Marx standard when I've been given the nod that I'd be ushered into the Brotherhood if I wanted to join.

 

[free spirit]

Keith Gregory, are the Masons an avenue that needs to be investigated?

Masons definitely need to be investigated, especially in North Wales.

I think nearly everyone, especially on the list that I have are all members of some sort of Masonic Lodge

Councillor Keith Gregory

This from one of the abuse victims who is now a local councillor in the area, and the guy who helped clear up the accusations against McAlpine, so surely someone who deserves to be taken relatively seriously and at least have his accusations investigated as he wishes.

 

[ViolentPanda]

wikipedo

Defied by millions of Catholics worldwide, as is the ban on use of contraception.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I certainly think being any kind of copper/judge is incompatible with membership of exclusive, secretive organisations.

I also don't like the exclusion of women from masonry, and such exclusion strikes me as on dodgy ground legally, tbh. I wouldn't want to have people's freedom to form silly societies taken away, but even in private societies, certain rules to do with discrimination can and should apply.

 

[DotCommunist]

Defied by millions of Catholics worldwide, as is the ban on use of contraception.

mmm, in that book I was reading about the third from present pope's dodgy deat the author had P2 linked with senior vatican figures. I suppose it was what was feared all along, infiltration by a rival power group.

yallop. thats the author.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Masonic ritual is well-dressed but basically utilitarian.

How do you know?

*adds vp's name to list*

 

[Spymaster]

Fair play, spy. Truth is that it's far less sinister and/or exciting than it's sometimes made out to be, I guess.

Still seems a weird thing to want to join, tbh.

Most of my non-mason friends say the same thing!

Different people get different things from it. Some folk love the tradition of lodge ritual and learning about it's history, others see it as an effective way to get involved in charity, there are a lot of social events and sports clubs, tons of piss-ups, and plenty of opportunities to visit other lodges all over the world with different people. My lodge is about 80% Jewish, and whilst discussion of religion and politics is expressly forbidden in lodge, that's given me an opportunity to gain some great mates and depth of understanding of a culture in a way that I probably wouldn't have otherwise. Other lodges may be Sikh-heavy, or have a large number of builders/soldiers/doctors ... whatever. You get access to all that which can be fascinating.

 

[butchersapron]

Just rich tossers.

 

[ViolentPanda]

mmm, in that book I was reading about the third from present pope's dodgy deat the author had P2 linked with senior vatican figures. I suppose it was what was feared all along, infiltration by a rival power group.

yallop. thats the author.

"In G-d's Name". Good book, solid investigation. David Yallop rarely hares off following his preconceptions. He prefers to keep digging and see what he unearths, even if it contradicts his hypotheses.

 

[butchersapron]

Socially liberal power networks. Thanks. Thank you so much.

 

[ViolentPanda]

How do you know?

*adds vp's name to list*

I'm a lizard.

 

[free spirit]

It's also worth bearing in mind that a lot of this happened in the 70s, 80s and early 90s, so the Freemason organisation that Spy belongs to now could well be a very very different beast to the organisation back then, particularly to the organisation in deepest Wales.

This is true of many organisations from the Catholic Church to the Scouts, who both had serious paedophile problems in that period which they initially sought to brush under the carpet as organisations before eventually being forced to confront them, and make some radical changes to the practices within the organisation to prevent the situation from recurring.

Why should an organisation such as the Freemasons be automatically given a free pass on this, without any form of serious investigation? Particularly when it's own organisational rules contains the exact sort of internal handling of membership problems ethos that led to these issues in other organisations.

This isn't conspiracy theory, it's basic child protection / safeguarding good practice - these allegations must be taken seriously, and must be fully investigated.

 

[Spymaster]

Just rich tossers.

"Tossers" if you like, but "rich" is waaay off.

 

[butchersapron]

"Tossers" if you like, but "rich" is waaay off.

Of all the posts to reply to.

 

[butchersapron]

"Tossers" if you like, but "rich" is waaay off.

What else cements these people then - if not masonry?

 

[Spymaster]

Of all the posts to reply to.

Which one would you prefer I reply to? I've covered them all haven't I?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's also worth bearing in mind that a lot of this happened in the 70s, 80s and early 90s, so the Freemason organisation that Spy belongs to now could well be a very very different beast to the organisation back then, particularly to the organisation in deepest Wales.

This is true of many organisations from the Catholic Church to the Scouts, who both had serious paedophile problems in that period which they initially sought to brush under the carpet as organisations before eventually being forced to confront them, and make some radical changes to the practices within the organisation to prevent the situation from recurring.

Why should an organisation such as the Freemasons be automatically given a free pass on this, without any form of serious investigation? Particularly when it's own organisational rules contains the exact sort of internal handling of membership problems ethos that led to these issues in other organisations.

This isn't conspiracy theory, it's basic child protection / safeguarding good practice - these allegations must be taken seriously, and must be fully investigated.

You are right, I think, to make the comparison with the Catholic Church. It's certainly the kind of organisation that could conduct a systematic cover-up of wrong-doing. I know nothing of freemasonry really, but I would suspect that many of the men joining it would be seeking a kind of brotherhood.

 

[Spymaster]

What else cements these people then - if not masonry?

"Cements" in what way? Insofar as they're all part of the same club?

Well they are. And .....?

 

[butchersapron]

"Cements" in what way? Insofar as they're all part of the same club?

Well they are. And .....?

All rich - yes?

 

[DotCommunist]

"In G-d's Name". Good book, solid investigation. David Yallop rarely hares off following his preconceptions. He prefers to keep digging and see what he unearths, even if it contradicts his hypotheses.

its an eye opener, for sure. The stuff about mussolini having the italian state give the vatican loads of money in perpetuity was fuel to my anti-pope fire

 

[littlebabyjesus]

"Cements" in what way? Insofar as they're all part of the same club?

Well they are. And .....?

Ok, here's a question for you. I'd like to join. How do I do it? Do I just turn up? Is there a website you could direct me to?

That's one aspect of it that I dislike a lot. I co-run a martial arts club, and we take anyone who comes through the door. We wouldn't have it any other way, and we would be a very shitty club if we did. But this isn't like that, is it?

 

[Spymaster]

All rich - yes?

Fuck no!

Far from it.

 

[DotCommunist]

Ok, here's a question for you. I'd like to join. How do I do it? Do I just turn up? Is there a website you could direct me to?

That's one aspect of it that I dislike a lot. I co-run a martial arts club, and we take anyone who comes through the door. We wouldn't have it any other way, and we would be a very shitty club if we did. But this isn't like that, is it?

I've had a soft soaped recruitment speech from a taxi driver, be-sovereign and tattooed. I don't think every lodge is made up of the local movers and shakers, given that. WTF would they want me for?*


*don't say buggery

My uncle is convinced that they fix roofers rates in this town through the masonic lodges but then he also recons all the fruit machines in northampton are rigged so pinch of

 

[butchersapron]

Fuck no!

Far from it.

Yeah.