Is a revolution possible in the UK?

[Silas Loom]

<<raises hand>>

If revolution means violence, chaos, death and destruction then I would hope that any reasonable person would be opposed.

Thank goodness for that.

 

[Karl Masks]

<<raises hand>>

If revolution means violence, chaos, death and destruction then I would hope that any reasonable person would be opposed.

It would be nice to live in a world where progrress and social justice and democracy could be achieved for everyone painlessly. We don't, and those things already happen. A revolution free Britain, for the past 14 years, has seen democide waged against the poorest and most vulnerable costing 300,000 lives. The capitalists local response to a global pandemic they knew was coming led to 200,000 excess deaths all so they could profit. That's more than enough chaos death and destruction for any of us i should imagine.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I asked for anyone else.

Denikin was a bit unfair, I am absolutely in favour of bloody revolutions against Romanovs, and for that matter against Bourbons and Stuarts. And I’m very keen on disposing of the Windsors, without constitutional uproar. I just don’t think that current levels of oppression are anything like high enough to justify the upheaval and risk of tyranny involved in a revolution against today’s powers that be.

And I’d be rather amazed if no-one else here felt similarly.

Yeah, I am with you on that.

I would like to see reform to the voting system to provide true democracy, not a bloody revolution.

 

[Silas Loom]

It would be nice to live in a world where progrress and social justice and democracy could be achieved for everyone painlessly. We don't, and those things already happen. A revolution free Britain, for the past 14 years, has seen democide waged against the poorest and most vulnerable costing 300,000 lives. The capitalists local response to a global pandemic they knew was coming led to 200,000 excess deaths all so they could profit. That's more than enough chaos death and destruction for any of us i should imagine.

I don’t suppose you’d care to source those numbers?

 

[Karl Masks]

I don’t suppose you’d care to source those numbers?

United Kingdom COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer

United Kingdom Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.

www.worldometers.info

Bearing the burden of austerity: how do changing mortality rates in the UK compare between men and women? | Journal of Epidemiology & Community Health

https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/mortality-rates-among-men-and-women-impact-of-austerity/#:~:text=It%20said%20approximately%20335%2C000%20additional,in%20England%2C%20Scotland%20and%20Wales.

 

[RD2003]

You'd think Putin would be able to sort us a revolution. After all, he gave us Brexit and Trump even while he's busy controlling nearly everything else that goes on in the world.

 

[Silas Loom]

United Kingdom COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer

United Kingdom Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline.

www.worldometers.info

Bearing the burden of austerity: how do changing mortality rates in the UK compare between men and women? | Journal of Epidemiology & Community Health

https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/mortality-rates-among-men-and-women-impact-of-austerity/#:~:text=It%20said%20approximately%20335%2C000%20additional,in%20England%2C%20Scotland%20and%20Wales.

So you’re attributing pretty much all covid mortality to an insufficient public health response, which in turn you attribute solely to capitalists chasing profits?

 

[JimW]

You'd think Putin would be able to sort us a revolution. After all, he gave us Brexit and Trump even while he's busy controlling nearly everything else that goes on in the world.

Just signed a treaty allying with the DPRK, so could be game on for imposed Juche.

 

[The39thStep]

You'd think Putin would be able to sort us a revolution. After all, he gave us Brexit and Trump even while he's busy controlling nearly everything else that goes on in the world.

He was also responsible for stopping Paul Mason from becoming a Labour Party candidate

 

[Karl Masks]

So you’re attributing pretty much all covid mortality to an insufficient public health response, which in turn you attribute solely to capitalists chasing profits?

I'm attributing our excessive failure to deal with covid on capitalists chasing profits. Obviously some deaths are, grimly, to be expected during a pandemic. The degree is the issue

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Does anyone think a non left revolution could happen in the UK?

 

[Silas Loom]

Does anyone think a non left revolution could happen in the UK?

More likely than a left one, but still highly improbable.

 

[Spymaster]

Aren't there right-wing, populist revolutions, of sorts, going on all over the place (inc the UK) at the moment?

 

[Serge Forward]

<<raises hand>>

If revolution means violence, chaos, death and destruction then I would hope that any reasonable person would be opposed.

Under the current system, a large proportion of the world's population continues to go hungry; last time I looked, Unicef were saying that around 40,000 kids a day die from malnutrition and poverty related illness; there is more than enough food to feed everyone worldwide; food continues to be destroyed to raise prices; scarcity is enforced. Is this not violence on an industrial scale?

And we haven't even got started on the countless wars over resources, trade routes, strategic geopolitical interests, nor the random state violence in varying degrees depending on which part of the world you live in.

I think social revolution is long overdue.

And by the way, historically, most of the violence during past revolutions has been at the hands of the counter-revolution, i.e. bosses and state forces and their proxies. Most revolutions have been fairly peaceful affairs until the boss class attempts to stamp it out.

 

[ska invita]

Depends on what Revolution means - it can be used to describe a lot of different things.
What would revolution in 21st century Britain even look like? One problem is that there is little agreement about even an imagined version of this.

If you believe Nigel Farage he thinks he will cause a revolution on July the 4th

TBF the collapse of the Tories into third place would be a revolution of sorts.

whose streets? our streets!

 

[Gromit]

Seriously have you not heard of air fryers?
It's a revolution!

 

[mojo pixy]

Seriously have you not heard of air fryers?
It's a revolution!

exactly

revolutionary car design
revolutionary shaving technology
revolutionary skincare
revolutionary breakfast bowl
a revolution in your inbox
it's a clear revolution
join the revolution

The word means nothing more than 'novel and a bit different' nowadays

revolution.. boring

 

[The39thStep]

<<raises hand>>

If revolution means violence, chaos, death and destruction then I would hope that any reasonable person would be opposed.

I think you might find that the vast majority of this sort of stuff happens under capitalism in non revolutionary periods tbh

 

[A380]

View attachment 429481

I know he needs something to do when he retires after the Olympics but I’d have thought he’d have gone for some kind of punditry gig…

 

[Lotte]

No, it’s not what they’re saying. But it is how what they’re saying, when made in short form, is usually understood these days, which is why I’ve largely stopped trying to make the critique they’re attempting to make.

I can’t speak for burtabraham but this article has a go at making a similar point: Lead Belly, the Scottsboro Boys, Staying Woke, and Class

However, for a longer form analysis you’d need to read a book like Not So Black and White by Kenan Malik.

The resistance towards being receptive to his arguments, though, is both understandable and something I’ve seen over many years. So I’m not holding my breath hoping that it’ll be understood.

Thanks. I'll explain why I was hesitant at first: because I've seen the argument from some leftists that anything to do with feminism or LGBT stuff is a bourgeois concern and that class is the only thing that matters.

 

[danny la rouge]

Thanks. I'll explain why I was hesitant at first: because I've seen the argument from some leftists that anything to do with feminism or LGBT stuff is a bourgeois concern and that class is the only thing that matters.

And the patriarchal left did a lot of harm with that attitude.

 

[Pickman's model]

Aren't there right-wing, populist revolutions, of sorts, going on all over the place (inc the UK) at the moment?

That's more revolution in the sense of the wheels on the bus go round round round

 

[scalyboy]

Listen to TalkSport or FiveLive on a Saturday evening after the football. Listen to the anger, passion , engagement and detailed knowledge of the blokes (it’s mostly blokes) who phone in.
That VAR decision was criminal…
Why is manager A playing player X down the middle when everyone knows he’s at his best on the wing…
Why did manager B wait until the 75th minute before bringing Y off the bench….

Why aren’t people in the UK equally passionate and angry about privatised water companies creaming quarterly profits from us. while they happily pour gallons of shit into our rivers and seas?
Why don’t people find it enraging that Facebook, Google etc make millions, nay billions, from the UK but pay little to no tax to the Treasury due to some offshore jiggery-pokery?

“that’s just the way things are innit” shrug
“Politicians? Do me a favour - they’re all as bad as each other”

etc

 

[PR1Berske]

Listen to TalkSport or FiveLive on a Saturday evening after the football. Listen to the anger, passion , engagement and detailed knowledge of the blokes (it’s mostly blokes) who phone in.
That VAR decision was criminal…
Why is manager A playing player X down the middle when everyone knows he’s at his best on the wing…
Why did manager B wait until the 75th minute before bringing Y off the bench….

Why aren’t people in the UK equally passionate and angry about privatised water companies creaming quarterly profits from us. while they happily pour gallons of shit into our rivers and seas?
Why don’t people find it enraging that Facebook, Google etc make millions, nay billions, from the UK but pay little to no tax to the Treasury due to some offshore jiggery-pokery?

“that’s just the way things are innit” shrug
“Politicians? Do me a favour - they’re all as bad as each other”

etc

They're angry but don't get there's anything they can do. There's an immediate effect to complaining about the match because the next game is seven days away. Fixing the global tax system is too grand, too massive, to have any relevance.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Aren't there right-wing, populist revolutions, of sorts, going on all over the place (inc the UK) at the moment?

Please elaborate.

 

[Serge Forward]

Listen to TalkSport or FiveLive on a Saturday evening after the football. Listen to the anger, passion , engagement and detailed knowledge of the blokes (it’s mostly blokes) who phone in.
That VAR decision was criminal…
Why is manager A playing player X down the middle when everyone knows he’s at his best on the wing…
Why did manager B wait until the 75th minute before bringing Y off the bench….

Why aren’t people in the UK equally passionate and angry about privatised water companies creaming quarterly profits from us. while they happily pour gallons of shit into our rivers and seas?
Why don’t people find it enraging that Facebook, Google etc make millions, nay billions, from the UK but pay little to no tax to the Treasury due to some offshore jiggery-pokery?

“that’s just the way things are innit” shrug
“Politicians? Do me a favour - they’re all as bad as each other”

etc

It's not that we're told what to think (though if you read the papers and watch telly, we're told what to think quite a lot), but it's more that we're told what to think about and what we can lawfully do about things. The parameters are already pre-set by the rich and powerful. So getting angry about a ref's decision is acceptable, getting angry about, say, Israel bombing Gaza is less acceptable. Moaning about the government is acceptable, doing anything about the government outside of the proper parliamentary channels is unacceptable. Getting angry about greedy landlords is acceptable, wanting to take meaningful action against landlords is unacceptable. Getting angry with the boss is acceptable but going on strike is unacceptable. And the view that the capitalists rob us of surplus value on a daily basis (theft) is perfectly legal and not to be discussed in any way (outside rarified academic circles or on the fringes of the tiny class struggle left).

 

[Pickman's model]

It's not that we're told what to think (though if you read the papers and watch telly, we're told what to think quite a lot), but it's more that we're told what to think about and what we can lawfully do about things. The parameters are already pre-set by the rich and powerful. So getting angry about a ref's decision is acceptable, getting angry about, say, Israel bombing Gaza is less acceptable. Moaning about the government is acceptable, doing anything about the government outside of the proper parliamentary channels is unacceptable. Getting angry about greedy landlords is acceptable, wanting to take meaningful action against landlords is unacceptable. Getting angry with the boss is acceptable but going on strike is unacceptable. And the view that the capitalists rob us of surplus value on a daily basis (theft) is perfectly legal and not to be discussed in any way (outside rarified academic circles or on the fringes of the tiny class struggle left).

Workers getting exploited is acceptable up to a certain point

 

[Spymaster]

Please elaborate.

Well the suggestion is that people are become increasingly bored with far-left wankery on multiple issues, and the somniferous effects of wallies who bang on about leftist ideology like class war; that they're starting to vote for people like Le Pen and Farage instead. Six EU countries (Finland, Slovakia, Italy, Hungary, Croatia, and Czech) already have hard-right governments, so that's kind of a revolution, mainly because people increasingly want to give lefties a wristy.

 

[ska invita]

who bang on about leftist ideology like class war, as if it were real

lol endless examples of it in history, literally too many to count
ETA - you edited that out of your post - too slow

 

[Serge Forward]

Well the suggestion is that people are become increasingly bored with far-left wankery on multiple issues, and the somniferous effects of wallies who bang on about leftist ideology like class war; that they're starting to vote for people like Le Pen and Farage instead. Six EU countries (Finland, Slovakia, Italy, Hungary, Croatia, and Czech) already have hard-right governments, so that's kind of a revolution, mainly because people increasingly want to give lefties a wristy.

Class war is not ideology, it's a social and economic relationship. Unfortunately, it's a war that's mostly being fought by the capitalists against a working class that is largely unaware of this daily onslaught against them and a system that is rigged. Ironically the ruling class aren't exactly secretive about their one-sided war either. But it's just another thing that it's unacceptable to get angry about. You portraying class war as "leftist ideology" feeds into this.