Is a revolution possible in the UK?

[burtabraham]

If you go back and read your post you'll note considerable differences

Explain to me like I’m a child

 

[mojo pixy]

View attachment 429561

1970, actually, if this means the recorded version(s). As for playing it live, maybe 1968. Either way, 1969 isn't the year it comes from.

More heavy metal nerdery plz

 

[Serge Forward]

What does this actually mean though in practice?

It means a "revolution" without the masses is not really a revolution, it's more a coup or a putsch. And the only leadership worth anything in a revolution is that of ideas. Power should be in the hands of the masses.

 

[Gromit]

1970, actually, if this means the recorded version(s). As for playing it live, maybe 1968. Either way, 1969 isn't the year it comes from.

More heavy metal nerdery plz

The Simpsons are credited with multiple prophecies.

Yet no one mentions how Sabbath foretold Diego Armando Maradona's goal in the 1986 World Cup.

 

[burtabraham]

It means a "revolution" without the masses is not really a revolution, it's more a coup or a putsch. And the only leadership worth anything in a revolution is that of ideas. Power should be in the hands of the masses.

What percentage of the population does ‘the masses’ consist of? Who makes the decisions about what to do the day after, and who ensures they actually do what is demanded of them?

 

[Sue]

What percentage of the population does ‘the masses’ consist of? Who makes the decisions about what to do the day after, and who ensures they actually do what is demanded of them?

What is demanded of them and by whom...?

 

[burtabraham]

What is demanded of them and by whom...?

Cool revolutionary stuff demanded by ‘the masses’, apparently.

 

[Serge Forward]

What percentage of the population does ‘the masses’ consist of? Who makes the decisions about what to do the day after, and who ensures they actually do what is demanded of them?

It would need to be a significant proportion of the working class. How many? Who knows, but you'd recognise it if you saw it. George Orwell did:

To anyone who had been there since the beginning it probably seemed even in December or January that the revolutionary period was ending; but when one came straight from England the aspect of Barcelona was something startling and overwhelming. It was the first time that I had ever been in a town where the working class was in the saddle. Practically every building of any size had been seized by the workers and was draped with red flags or with the red and black flag of the Anarchists; every wall was scrawled with the hammer and sickle and with the initials of the revolutionary parties; almost every church had been gutted and its images burnt. Churches here and there were being systematically demolished by gangs of workman. Every shop and cafe had an inscription saying that it had been collectivised; even the bootblacks had been collectivized and their boxes painted red and black. Waiters and shop-walkers looked you in the face and treated you as an equal. Servile and even ceremonial forms of speech had temporarily disappeared. Nobody said 'Sen~or' or 'Don' ort even 'Usted'; everyone called everyone else 'Comrade' or 'Thou', and said 'Salud!' instead of 'Buenos dias'. Tipping had been forbidden by law since the time of Primo de Rivera; almost my first experience was receiving a lecture from a hotel manager for trying to tip a lift-boy. There were no private motor-cars, they had all been commandeered, and the trams and taxis and much of the other transport were painted red and black. The revolutionary posters were everywhere, flaming from the walls in clean reds and blues that made the few remaining advertisements look like daubs of mud. Down the Ramblas, the wide central artery of the town where crowds of people streamed constantly to and fro, the loud-speakers were bellowing revolutionary songs all day and far into the night. And it was the aspect of the crowds that was the queerest thing of all. In outward appearance it was a town in which the wealthy classes had practically ceased to exist. Except for a small number of women and foreigners there were no 'well-dressed' people at all. Practically everyone wore rough working-class clothes, or blue overalls or some variant of militia uniform. All this was queer and moving. There was much in this that I did not understand, in some ways I did not not even like it, but I recognized it immediately as a state of affairs worth fighting for. Also, I believed that things were as they appeared, that this was really a workers' State and that the entire bourgeoisie had either fled, been killed or voluntarily come over to the workers' side; I did not realise that great numbers of well-to-do bourgeois were simply lying low and disguising themselves as proletarians for the time being.

As for who ensures what, there's such a thing as workers' councils, sindicates, revolutionary committees. These things all have historical precedence. If a revolution were to take place, there is much to learn from and adapt for the future.

 

[Sue]

Cool revolutionary stuff demanded by ‘the masses’, apparently.

I'm not sure you've quite got the hang of this revolutionary masses thing. I'm just hoping it happens at the weekend tbh as I'll have work on the Monday.

 

[JimW]

I think the experience of the Jingangshan base area teaches us we need to find a marginal border region, mountainous and remote, where class and ethnic divisions can be exploited by the Red factions, and perhaps winning local bandit leaders/county lines top boys to the cause, the hills up behind Rhyl maybe, then we wait for the Japanese to invade and the ROTC encirclement campaigns, and Bob's you uncle, twenty years later we're declaring the republic from the balcony at Buckingham Palace,

 

[The39thStep]

What does this actually mean though in practice?

I’m going to try and give you an answer ( over lunch as it goes) however I don’t want to unnecessarily open a can of worms . I’m sure there will be other examples to what I am trying to convey.

Your big concern was the apparent ‘unwillingness of people who advocate for revolution to actually outline in detail what the day after will look like, and how the society will be managed in a better way going forward.’

Actually there are no shortage , probably an excess tbh , of revolutionaries with plans of ‘how society will be managed in a better way going forward’ . Admittedly there is probably a shortage of detailed outlines of what the day after the revolution will look like .

There’s a number of possible explanations for this however I want to concentrate on the masses not revolutionaries issue.

Firstly revolutions don’t normally happen in a day and even where there has been a regime change within a short period , let’s say a day , the next day or days are normally a period where the political situation is still contested . It will be contested by a number of different participants claiming to represent the interests of classes , the state or factions In the case of the Portuguese revolution after the removal of the fascists this went on for two years . In the case of the Russian revolution after the removal of the Czars it went on for longer .

Secondly where the masses have not been involved in the seizure of power ie by armed coup , say for example Cuba or more recently Portugal , the revolutionaries still have to have mass support or gain mass support. Again in Portugal the masses took to the street , famously gave the Armed Forces , who were led by an alliance of anti fascists including the Communist Party , carnations ( note kebabking) and the masses took over large estates and places of work actually pushing the revolution further to economic equality .

In the case of the Russian revolution the initial regime change was very much a combination of social democrats/ liberals and the masses . The second by the masses who aligned themselves with a variety of different and fluid political positions . However in the end it wasn’t a detailed political manifesto that the masses endorsed it was simply the slogan Land, Peace and Bread . The political spectrum in Russia was contested and fluid . No masses no Mensheviks , no anarchists no Bolsheviks would have had any influence .

Now in other example let’s take the Maiden revolution in Ukraine where reforms were extracted from the regime by mass demonstrations and violence including shooting . The violence actually came from a radicalised right ( without it there may not have been a regime change ) however there was no revolutionary vanguard , no drawn up plans , demands changed as the contested political arena reflected the level of struggle . In the end there was no real detail about reforms that were desired aside from an end to corruption , some nationalist demands , some break with Russia and some pro EU sentiments . Nevertheless the government had to step down and reforms were made . However the nature of these reforms reflect the class interests involved in the mobilisations and not some revolutionary manifesto from either right or left .

So in short , it’s when the masses become revolutionary that you have a revolutionary situation rather than the revolutionaries leading the masses to revolution.

 

[campanula]

What exactly is meant by a revolution then? There isn't some agreed narrative and neat line-up of cause and effect, leading to a 'world turned upside down' , rampaging armed mobs, soldiers on the streets and blood on the walls, complete with exotic accessories (guillotines, tumbrils, weird cults)? However, far-reaching change can happen with the smallest of incremental actions, tiny discontents, years of resentment and just a small nudge in fundamentals such as housing, healthcare, education, food...so the possibilities for revolutionary change now we have catastrophic climate changes hoving into view, don't seem too far-fetched to me at all.
I seriously doubt a revolution will be deliberately planned but our world is complex, unstable and deeply unequal...with fracture lines and structural bodges all over the place - capital in a rogue phase, power concentrated in the hands of a small number of venal, vicious sociopaths, a polity which, however ground down and immiserated, still maintains some sense of fairness and justice. Small incremental changes and tipping points will, I think, result in a more sustained challenge to the status quo. I think this is a long game, not an overnight fire and pitchforks move...but totally feasible once you remove the sensational ideas of barricades in the streets in favour of a quiet mass disobedience - a simple refusal to pay our bills or remove our labour is plenty for the agencies of oppression and control to get worried about.

 

[Serge Forward]

What exactly is meant by a revolution then? There isn't some agreed narrative and neat line-up of cause and effect, leading to a 'world turned upside down' , rampaging armed mobs, soldiers on the streets and blood on the walls, complete with exotic accessories (guillotines, tumbrils, weird cults)? However, far-reaching change can happen with the smallest of incremental actions, tiny discontents, years of resentment and just a small nudge in fundamentals such as housing, healthcare, education, food...so the possibilities for revolutionary change now we have catastrophic climate changes hoving into view, don't seem too far-fetched to me at all.
I seriously doubt a revolution will be deliberately planned but our world is complex, unstable and deeply unequal...with fracture lines and structural bodges all over the place - capital in a rogue phase, power concentrated in the hands of a small number of venal, vicious sociopaths, a polity which, however ground down and immiserated, still maintains some sense of fairness and justice. Small incremental changes and tipping points will, I think, result in a more sustained challenge to the status quo. I think this is a long game, not an overnight fire and pitchforks move...but totally feasible once you remove the sensational ideas of barricades in the streets in favour of a quiet mass disobedience - a simple refusal to pay our bills or remove our labour is plenty for the agencies of oppression and control to get worried about.

Some fair points there. But then again, there's also the saying "those who make a revolution half way merely dig their own graves."

 

[Don Baumgarten]

Some fair points there. But then again, there's also the saying "those who make a revolution half way merely dig their own graves."

I struggle to make my own bed of a morning

 

[Elohim]

There will be no revolution people will just moan argue online and polish and sharpen their political ideals.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

There will be no revolution people will just moan argue online and polish and sharpen their political ideals.

The UK would need to shake off the empire hangover and end up in an actual developing world state for people to feel motivated it seems...

 

[krtek a houby]

There will be no revolution people will just moan argue online and polish and sharpen their political ideals.

And post useless far right videos

 

[Elohim]

And post useless far right videos

Think we are going full circle. Was on a job the other day and the client was on about the fascist Palestinian marches. I tried to engage and mention the continued genocide and client just got irritated and called them nazis.

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

Think we are going full circle. Was on a job the other day and the client was on about the fascist Palestinian marches. I tried to engage and mention the continued genocide and client just got irritated and called them nazis.

not met anyone on this tone yet, will probably play along to the tune of "why can't you think of those poor nazis being bombed into the stone age" or some such quip which will probably end in a fisticuff ffs

 

[Larry O'Hara]

An intermittently interesting discussion when on topic (especially 39th step). While it is undergoing final polishing, and images need scanning/adding, i will shortly post here when it is online the link to a fascinating article that first appeared in the internal Discussion Bulletin of my old organisation Big Flame way back in 1979. It has never appeared in public before anywhere and we (at Notes From the Borderland) had to use OCR software to scan it, with limited success (hence much had to be retyped). But for those interested in this seemingly arcane subject, I can assure you it will be well worth the short wait…

 

[Larry O'Hara]

I’m going to try and give you an answer ( over lunch as it goes) however I don’t want to unnecessarily open a can of worms . I’m sure there will be other examples to what I am trying to convey.

Your big concern was the apparent ‘unwillingness of people who advocate for revolution to actually outline in detail what the day after will look like, and how the society will be managed in a better way going forward.’

Actually there are no shortage , probably an excess tbh , of revolutionaries with plans of ‘how society will be managed in a better way going forward’ . Admittedly there is probably a shortage of detailed outlines of what the day after the revolution will look like .

There’s a number of possible explanations for this however I want to concentrate on the masses not revolutionaries issue.

Firstly revolutions don’t normally happen in a day and even where there has been a regime change within a short period , let’s say a day , the next day or days are normally a period where the political situation is still contested . It will be contested by a number of different participants claiming to represent the interests of classes , the state or factions In the case of the Portuguese revolution after the removal of the fascists this went on for two years . In the case of the Russian revolution after the removal of the Czars it went on for longer .

Secondly where the masses have not been involved in the seizure of power ie by armed coup , say for example Cuba or more recently Portugal , the revolutionaries still have to have mass support or gain mass support. Again in Portugal the masses took to the street , famously gave the Armed Forces , who were led by an alliance of anti fascists including the Communist Party , carnations ( note kebabking) and the masses took over large estates and places of work actually pushing the revolution further to economic equality .

In the case of the Russian revolution the initial regime change was very much a combination of social democrats/ liberals and the masses . The second by the masses who aligned themselves with a variety of different and fluid political positions . However in the end it wasn’t a detailed political manifesto that the masses endorsed it was simply the slogan Land, Peace and Bread . The political spectrum in Russia was contested and fluid . No masses no Mensheviks , no anarchists no Bolsheviks would have had any influence .

Now in other example let’s take the Maiden revolution in Ukraine where reforms were extracted from the regime by mass demonstrations and violence including shooting . The violence actually came from a radicalised right ( without it there may not have been a regime change ) however there was no revolutionary vanguard , no drawn up plans , demands changed as the contested political arena reflected the level of struggle . In the end there was no real detail about reforms that were desired aside from an end to corruption , some nationalist demands , some break with Russia and some pro EU sentiments . Nevertheless the government had to step down and reforms were made . However the nature of these reforms reflect the class interests involved in the mobilisations and not some revolutionary manifesto from either right or left .

So in short , it’s when the masses become revolutionary that you have a revolutionary situation rather than the revolutionaries leading the masses to revolution.

Very interesting contribution as usual: and as will shortly be revealed (see my other post) analysis of May 1968 in France and Chile 1970-73 has to be in the mix too….

 

[Larry O'Hara]

What exactly is meant by a revolution then? There isn't some agreed narrative and neat line-up of cause and effect, leading to a 'world turned upside down' , rampaging armed mobs, soldiers on the streets and blood on the walls, complete with exotic accessories (guillotines, tumbrils, weird cults)? However, far-reaching change can happen with the smallest of incremental actions, tiny discontents, years of resentment and just a small nudge in fundamentals such as housing, healthcare, education, food...so the possibilities for revolutionary change now we have catastrophic climate changes hoving into view, don't seem too far-fetched to me at all.
I seriously doubt a revolution will be deliberately planned but our world is complex, unstable and deeply unequal...with fracture lines and structural bodges all over the place - capital in a rogue phase, power concentrated in the hands of a small number of venal, vicious sociopaths, a polity which, however ground down and immiserated, still maintains some sense of fairness and justice. Small incremental changes and tipping points will, I think, result in a more sustained challenge to the status quo. I think this is a long game, not an overnight fire and pitchforks move...but totally feasible once you remove the sensational ideas of barricades in the streets in favour of a quiet mass disobedience - a simple refusal to pay our bills or remove our labour is plenty for the agencies of oppression and control to get worried about.

You are partly right: but simple refusal is in itself a negation, not as such a transcendence. What is needed is a strategy for the transition, not in the abstract sense of Trotsky’s Transitional Programme. A really big topic of course, that strange to say I am currently writing a book about…

 

[bcuster]

To what can the American Revolution be attributed to? A view thatvthe governed become oppressive?

The standard of living in 18th century America was good ; no threat from global warming

 

[_Russ_]

I think it would immediately be labelled a violent insurrection and as we dont have guns to shoot back at the fuckers who will be shooting us and the victors write the history books..the revolution will/would have never actually happen(ed)

 

[Larry O'Hara]

I think it would immediately be labelled a violent insurrection and as we dont have guns to shoot back at the fuckers who will be shooting us and the victors write the history books..the revolution will/would have never actually happen(ed)

Which is why a split in the state repressive apparatus is a sine qua non of any revolution. Or as Lenin once put it “does the oppressed class have arms?”…

 

[_Russ_]

Which is why a split in the state repressive apparatus is a sine qua non of any revolution. Or as Lenin once put it “does the oppressed class have arms?”…

Get the Army on side?. I'd have problems calling that scenario a revolution but I expect I've misunderstood what you mean by the repressive apparatus

 

[Larry O'Hara]

Get the Army on side?. I'd have problems calling that scenario a revolution but I expect I've misunderstood what you mean by the repressive apparatus

Not getting the army on side as such but encouraging mutiny and arming autonomously. Will elaborate elsewhere

 

[krtek a houby]

To what can the American Revolution be attributed to? A view thatvthe governed become oppressive?

The standard of living in 18th century America was good ; no threat from global warming

Good for well off white people

 

[Larry O'Hara]

I did promise something on revolutionary strategy did I not? Have a look at this that we have finally put on-line at the Notes From the Borderland site. Revolutionary Strategy Rethought...
A word of advice to those who get information only from You-Tube & other social media channels: this is not for you as it requires sustained concentration, though there are some pictures....

 

[rasputin]

I did promise something on revolutionary strategy did I not? Have a look at this that we have finally put on-line at the Notes From the Borderland site. Revolutionary Strategy Rethought...
A word of advice to those who get information only from You-Tube & other social media channels: this is not for you as it requires sustained concentration, though there are some pictures....

Personally, I have no problem with revolutionaries, provided they stick to emulating Karl Marx by sitting at home and writing stuff for other revolutionaries to read.