Is a revolution possible in the UK?

[danny la rouge]

leftist ideology like class war

The class war is being waged upon us continually. But the Common Sense of the current hegemony is to maintain that “class war” only means when people fight back; so long as people accept the onslaught, in this view, there is no war. Peace, in this view, is shutting up and taking it.

But for examples of the onslaught you need see only the effects of climate catastrophe in the global south, the way that “austerity” disproportionately affects the poorest, the effects of poverty on educational attainment, on physical health, on mental health, on access to education, on housing, on social status and empowerment, and on and on.

 

[ska invita]

back to basics

 

[RD2003]

Well the suggestion is that people are become increasingly bored with far-left wankery on multiple issues, and the somniferous effects of wallies who bang on about leftist ideology like class war; that they're starting to vote for people like Le Pen and Farage instead. Six EU countries (Finland, Slovakia, Italy, Hungary, Croatia, and Czech) already have hard-right governments, so that's kind of a revolution, mainly because people increasingly want to give lefties a wristy.

The 'liberal establishment' is the primary target of the populists, and they include the centre-right within this umbrella term. They might include 'the left' as well, but talk of class war doesn't come into it, as the small section of the left that still prioritises class struggle is invisible to almost everybody.

 

[likesfish]

Farage and his like give simple understandable answers to complex problems. blame foreigners brown foreigners
The left mostly doesn't do that because it's a fucking complex problem the obsession with ID politics hasn't helped because it doesn't matter how woke you fucking are if you never even get within a smell of actual power. Starmer will achieve more than Corbyn because he will actually get power. It's not a choice between a middle manager and a socialist paradise. It's a choice between a cunt with a billionaire sugar mummy and somebody who won't crash the economy because they like to wank to Ayn rand.Starmer I won't wreck the economy because I don't own an Ayn Rand dildo probably won't be a labour party motto

 

[Pickman's model]

Well the suggestion is that people are become increasingly bored with far-left wankery on multiple issues, and the somniferous effects of wallies who bang on about leftist ideology like class war; that they're starting to vote for people like Le Pen and Farage instead. Six EU countries (Finland, Slovakia, Italy, Hungary, Croatia, and Czech) already have hard-right governments, so that's kind of a revolution, mainly because people increasingly want to give lefties a wristy.

If you'd read e.g. auberon waugh or alan clark you'd know the notion of class war widely held among the ruling class. Take down your volume of ac's diaries (you've placed them beside your copy of mht's downing street years, seemingly equally unread) and have a glance through them

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

Yeah if it's a right wing revolution we could do with hiding this forum behind a fake landing page for a while.

Not sure who told you it’s a left wing forum?. If there is a right wing revolution you lot will go along with it willingly.
Any chance to point fingers.

 

[The39thStep]

Aren't there right-wing, populist revolutions, of sorts, going on all over the place (inc the UK) at the moment?

 

[Lotte]

People getting fed up with far-left wankery despite the far left being nowhere near power.

 

[Spymaster]

People getting fed up with far-left wankery despite the far left being nowhere near power.

Exactly. That how bad it’s become.

 

[PR1Berske]

Not sure who told you it’s a left wing forum?. If there is a right wing revolution you lot will go along with it willingly.
Any chance to point fingers.

This is not a right wing forum.

This thread perhaps outlines what happens as the years take their toll; not that people become more conservative as they age per se , just that ideology often dilutes. A revolution has been "on the cards" for centuries, each new dawn promises barricades to break. It doesn't come, and it likely won't.

 

[hitmouse]

Under the current system, a large proportion of the world's population continues to go hungry; last time I looked, Unicef were saying that around 40,000 kids a day die from malnutrition and poverty related illness; there is more than enough food to feed everyone worldwide; food continues to be destroyed to raise prices; scarcity is enforced. Is this not violence on an industrial scale?

And we haven't even got started on the countless wars over resources, trade routes, strategic geopolitical interests, nor the random state violence in varying degrees depending on which part of the world you live in.

I think social revolution is long overdue.

And by the way, historically, most of the violence during past revolutions has been at the hands of the counter-revolution, i.e. bosses and state forces and their proxies. Most revolutions have been fairly peaceful affairs until the boss class attempts to stamp it out.

Yeah, that old 68 line about a single non-revolutionary weekend is spot on imo - look at Gaza, or the current temperatures in Mexico, or India. You might say that those are only foreign deaths so they don't count, but again, even if we're not in line for the worst effects of climate change we're not immune from it either. If the continued functioning of a society run around the interests of fossil fuel companies means violence, chaos, death and destruction then I would hope that any reasonable person would be opposed.

A more interesting, or useful, question might be, what does it actually mean to be a revolutionary (or a pro-revolutionary, or someone with a revolutionary orientation, or whatever phrasing you want) today?

 

[ska invita]

A more interesting, or useful, question might be, what does it actually mean to be a revolutionary (or a pro-revolutionary, or someone with a revolutionary orientation, or whatever phrasing you want) today?

worth moving the thread on to that... im off to the pub sorry cant help

 

[hitmouse]

worth moving the thread on to that... im off to the pub sorry cant help

I have some suggestions, but I also fancy having a nap!

 

[The39thStep]

This is not a right wing forum.

This thread perhaps outlines what happens as the years take their toll; not that people become more conservative as they age per se , just that ideology often dilutes. A revolution has been "on the cards" for centuries, each new dawn promises barricades to break. It doesn't come, and it likely won't.

This post is certainly a very good example of when the years take their toll. Aside from some wishful , and throw away , thinking I am struggling to think where a ' revolution has been "on the cards" for centuries' or who has been saying that a revolution is on the cards for centuries. Marx himself didn't see revolutions as being inevitable.

I would point out that there's been a whole series of 'revolutions' in the former Soviet states during the early 21st century. Posters on here, and indeed citizens of the countries where they took place , might disagree as to what extent that they were left wing revolutions or how far they succeeded in any transformation of society. However, none could say that they didn't take place .

 

[xenon]

worth moving the thread on to that... im off to the pub sorry cant help

Me too. Not that I'd be much help but you know....

 

[mojo pixy]

im off to the pub sorry cant help

Turns out there's Revolutions all over the UK anyway so we're OK

 

[mojo pixy]

Actually I've checked and there isn't one in Ulster. Awww.

Which does remind me though. When Ulster joins the Republic, and when Scotland quits the UK ..I think that'll be a bit revolutionary.

 

[hitmouse]

worth moving the thread on to that... im off to the pub sorry cant help

OK, had my nap! I'd say that one important distinction is whether you're trying to build power independently from the state vs trying to gain power through it. Which is obviously a v anarchist take, but sod it, if any Leninists, SPGBers, or whatever want to defend their definition then they're welcome to.
Obviously it's tricky in practice - can a TUC union be said to be "independent of the state?" Can a local mutual aid group that has a friendly relationship with the local councillors? - but it's as good a starting point as any, and at least has the benefit of shifting the conversation away from "name the date" and more towards "what does a strategy look like?"

 

[burtabraham]

A big part of the problem is the unwillingness of people who advocate for revolution to actually outline in detail what the day after will look like, and how the society will be managed in a better way going forward.

 

[Pickman's model]

A big part of the problem is the unwillingness of people who advocate for revolution to actually outline in detail what the day after will look like, and how the society will be managed in a better way going forward.

You mean people's unwillingness to prescribe the form of a revolutionary society and their unforgiveable refusal to say who'll be in charge

 

[burtabraham]

You mean people's unwillingness to prescribe the form of a revolutionary society and their unforgiveable refusal to say who'll be in charge

Isn’t that what I said?

 

[Serge Forward]

A big part of the problem is the unwillingness of people who advocate for revolution to actually outline in detail what the day after will look like, and how the society will be managed in a better way going forward.

Nonsense. Surely that's for the revolutionaries of the future to determine rather than our children/grandchildren just following the diktaks of people today while working under conditions we cannot possibly have knowledge about now? Besides, there are plenty of freely available outlines for a possible post revolutionary society, but they can only ever be outlines (many of which would be desirable), otherwise it kind of defeats the whole point of a revolution. You might also want to look into the idea of prefiguative politics, i.e. creating the conditions now for the society you want to see.

 

[mwgdrwg]

...and then they asked if a revolution was possible in the UK!

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

A big part of the problem is the unwillingness of people who advocate for revolution to actually outline in detail what the day after will look like, and how the society will be managed in a better way going forward.

Part of the problem is precisely that too many revolutionaries have spent too long trying to outline in detail, falling out with each other, getting more and more intolerant. Meanwhile the world moves on.

 

[Pickman's model]

Isn’t that what I said?

If you go back and read your post you'll note considerable differences

 

[planetgeli]

A more interesting, or useful, question might be, what does it actually mean to be a revolutionary (or a pro-revolutionary, or someone with a revolutionary orientation, or whatever phrasing you want) today?

It means life is bloody depressing.

 

[The39thStep]

A big part of the problem is the unwillingness of people who advocate for revolution to actually outline in detail what the day after will look like, and how the society will be managed in a better way going forward.

Masses make revolution not revolutionaries

 

[Gromit]

Masses make revolution not revolutionaries

 

[Serge Forward]

In answer to the OP, as Rosa Luxemburg famously said, "Before a revolution happens, it is perceived as impossible; after it happens, it is seen as having been inevitable."

 

[burtabraham]

Masses make revolution not revolutionaries

What does this actually mean though in practice?