InArduisFouette
Active Member
assuming you are white , heterosexual, cisgender and have significant assets
Is a revolution possible in the UK?
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tim
EXPLODED TIM! (Help me!!!)
That's what did for that 5:2 diet doctor.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Glad to hear it. There's been talk on here about people being too "compliant" about mask wearing, so this shows people not likely to ever be revolutionary. But I'd say it shows just the opposite; the willingness to protect others, especially the most vulnerable. That and mutual aid groups starting up all over the country. It shows a good level of solidarity. That's revolutionary in it's own small way. And all those who banged on about masks infringing civil liberties, the "I don't think I should have to do that" and the "I'm alright, Jack" mentality, they are the ones furthest away from anything revolutionary. It was never about compliance but protecting those around us. Most people understood this - apart from the loons, woo merchants and right wingers.
Jeremiah18.17
Well-Known Member
If you read Prophet Song, last years Booker Prize winner, you will see quite clearly how a revolution/civil war could come about in an “advanced” western country like Britain. Prophet Song it is set in Ireland. The prerequisites are basically economic and political turbulence (tick) leading to the rise to power of right wing forces (
) that then overreach; before they have achieved total control, they alienate/enrage enough of the population (including many youth & parts of the state apparatus/forces) who feel they then have nothing to lose in the face of potential torture/death at hands of the regime. Throw in some foreign support for armed opposition/revolutionary forces and things begin to unravel very quickly.
The reason Prophet Song is so unnerving is that it is so plausible - and the horrific elements are clearly based on what has actually happened in various countries under authoritarian/fascist regimes.
) that then overreach; before they have achieved total control, they alienate/enrage enough of the population (including many youth & parts of the state apparatus/forces) who feel they then have nothing to lose in the face of potential torture/death at hands of the regime. Throw in some foreign support for armed opposition/revolutionary forces and things begin to unravel very quickly. The reason Prophet Song is so unnerving is that it is so plausible - and the horrific elements are clearly based on what has actually happened in various countries under authoritarian/fascist regimes.
8ball
Now containing implausible plot armour
I think you have conflated the early encouraging cases of
mutual aid with later measures and actions of a more top-down nature relating to masks in a way which has some
flaws and is using some narratives that are at least partially faulty and didn’t arise organically
I’ll have to pick this up later, though, I have a pre-med which is beginning to kick in and it’s becoming an effort to type without just producing strings of random characters.
I don’t disagree that many people’s espousal of masks came from a good place or that a lot of resistance was selfish whining. I disagree that that is a complete and useful summary, though.
Anyway, laters. Have a good night.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
I’m sure there were lots of people in the Soviet Union, East Germany and the rest of the communist world in 1985 planning their lives for the next 30 or so years under their then existing system.
Societies can be really fragile, we were probably a few 10s of hours away from a similar collapse in the west during the banking crisis.
I find it a bit odd and also quite sad that the only it only seems to me me and Pickman's model who seem to think significant change is possible, and his politics are about as far from my wanky reformism as you can get on the the ‘left’….
And we’ve cut a kings head off and kicked out a fair few others in this country. What was a big part of it a hundred years ago is now an independent country and that didn’t happen through them asking nicely.
Societies can be really fragile, we were probably a few 10s of hours away from a similar collapse in the west during the banking crisis.
I find it a bit odd and also quite sad that the only it only seems to me me and Pickman's model who seem to think significant change is possible, and his politics are about as far from my wanky reformism as you can get on the the ‘left’….
And we’ve cut a kings head off and kicked out a fair few others in this country. What was a big part of it a hundred years ago is now an independent country and that didn’t happen through them asking nicely.
Humberto
Don't worry, I've got a certificate
All the boisterous, rowdy peasants throwing off a feudal government spirit is basically still there. I mean it was much more of a deal to chop off the head of the 'divinely appointed' king than say Boris Johnson.
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
Humberto
Don't worry, I've got a certificate
Probably shit question for Marxists. The richest/ ruling class are profiting off and have been depending on our labour. But they've amassed so much, inequality has become so extreme that they are kind of bunkered in, literally probably. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but if widespread civil disobedience and militancy emerged, what would be the context? Particularly if, more than likely, it would come a decade or more at the least? Hope for the best?
hitmouse
policing yellow and opportunity purple
I think there's quite a few others on the thread who think significant change is possible, not least me. Possibly we're just being very cautious about how to phrase it because I suspect OP's intention with this thread is to set up a dichotomy where if you're not laughing at Corbyn for holding an umbrella you must want GENERAL STRIKE NOW. But yeah, pretty much everything about our current way of life is based on a set of preconditions including extensive use of fossil fuels and a relatively stable climate.
What comes next after those conditions are no longer in place is likely to be different. I'm not confident it's likely to be better, but the details of how exactly it'll be different are still to be determined.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Well, I wouldn't say a revolution is impossible, far from it. But if we're talking about a system-smashing social revolution (rather than something that only changes those political heads at the top) then it's a bigger ask and it would require certain conditions. But over the last few decades the working class has been aggressively de-educated in terms of class solidarity and class consciousness (even trade union consciousness is barely a thing these days). Without those things we've lost, without the existence of a viable mass workers' movement, without at least a significant minority of revolutionary workers pushing and organising for such a thing, then social revolution is highly unlikely... for now (I still remain optimistic, even though it may take somectime). A purely political revolution, on the other hand, that just switches one ruling class faction for another is always just days or weeks away.
Talk about "British people wouldn't do this... are too compliant..." etc, is a load of bollocks.
Yossarian
⏭️
This book summary was an interesting read on how the Little Ice Age - the biggest variation in temperatures in the last 5,000 years, apart from what is currently unfolding - changed society at the time
The most consequential effect of the frigid weather, Blom argues convincingly, was to disrupt the harvest, especially the grain harvest. It led to a fundamental shift in the social order across Europe, and beyond. The Little Ice Age amounted to “a long-term, continent-wide agricultural crisis,” as Blom writes. Grain harvests did not return to their previous levels for a hundred and eighty years. That affected everything about how society worked. Before this moment in European history, society was largely organized along feudal lines. The bulk of the population consisted of peasants, living on land owned by a lordly overclass. Town life, meanwhile, was dominated by restrictive guilds, and, in Blom’s description, it “valued social capital—class and family standing, trustworthiness, competition—but did not encourage anyone to reach beyond his station.” This settled order, which had lasted for centuries, was overturned. At first, there were panics and uprisings, food riots and rebellions, and a spike in witch trials—because, in a pre-scientific world, the idea that witches were responsible for failing harvests made as much sense as any other explanation.
Over time, however, larger structural shifts emerged.
The most consequential effect of the frigid weather, Blom argues convincingly, was to disrupt the harvest, especially the grain harvest. It led to a fundamental shift in the social order across Europe, and beyond. The Little Ice Age amounted to “a long-term, continent-wide agricultural crisis,” as Blom writes. Grain harvests did not return to their previous levels for a hundred and eighty years. That affected everything about how society worked. Before this moment in European history, society was largely organized along feudal lines. The bulk of the population consisted of peasants, living on land owned by a lordly overclass. Town life, meanwhile, was dominated by restrictive guilds, and, in Blom’s description, it “valued social capital—class and family standing, trustworthiness, competition—but did not encourage anyone to reach beyond his station.” This settled order, which had lasted for centuries, was overturned. At first, there were panics and uprisings, food riots and rebellions, and a spike in witch trials—because, in a pre-scientific world, the idea that witches were responsible for failing harvests made as much sense as any other explanation.
Over time, however, larger structural shifts emerged.
Karl Masks
Birds Angel Delight
By "is revolutoin possible" do you mean is a revolution that leads to a socialist/anticapital outcome possible, as opposed to a victory for capital?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Pls engage brain before posting
Tbf I wasn't on here during lockdown. I only came back recently. (And I wasn't on board the 'people who don't wear masks should be punished' train either, because how do you even enforce that for starters.)
Isn't climate change one of the things that's pushing people rightwards? Climate change -> people being displaced by floods, fires, drought etc. -> more refugees -> right-wing parties say they'll stop refugees coming -> more people vote for right-wing parties? Oversimplification, I know.
burtabraham
Active Member
A right-wing one, maybe. The left don't have a unifying narrative arc anymore. Unfortunately, the future created by the middle-class intersectionalistas is one of fractured identity groups, all vying for clientele status from the state. The left needs better stories.
burtabraham
Active Member
likesfish
You can't park here sir
over 80% of the UK are white and 95% identify as heterosexual a queer non white revolution is never happening
. Some sort of faragisqe dictatorship is more likely than that. miniority rights are not Important in the big picture at best they are distraction or used as a way to attack as seen by rishi and nige.That said it shouldn't be up for debate trans people exsist along with others and their needs should be met because they are human beings along with everyone else. Now when your rights conflict with others it's probably best sorted out by compromise and looking at individual situations hard and fast rules are likely to end badly. The prison service found out the hard way over trans prisoners
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Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
I think it is more complex than that: in that I disagree with the OP
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I think Lenin himself, when in Switzerland, thought that revolution was not possible in his lifetime, and without WW1 it wouldn't have been.
Agreed.
It's well documented that RBS came within hours of running out of money in October 2008, which would have collapsed the bank, and in turn likely collapsed the worldwide banking system (it was the world's biggest bank by balance sheet size at the time).
SpookyFrank
Float like a caterpillar, sting like a tree
Not even a sliver of a chance of it. When people were told to wear masks for no provable reason by the authorities, 99% did. A revolution?
This just proves they have the innate sense of solidarity and social responsibility that is a sine qua non for any successful revolution.
Silas Loom
Advanced. Forthright. Signifficant.
Out of interest, is there anyone else here who definitely doesn’t want a revolution and would strongly hope that anyone plotting one is forestalled?
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Fuck off Denikin.
Larry O'Hara
Well-Known Member
You perhaps?
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
No, it’s not what they’re saying. But it is how what they’re saying, when made in short form, is usually understood these days, which is why I’ve largely stopped trying to make the critique they’re attempting to make.
I can’t speak for burtabraham but this article has a go at making a similar point: Lead Belly, the Scottsboro Boys, Staying Woke, and Class
However, for a longer form analysis you’d need to read a book like Not So Black and White by Kenan Malik.
The resistance towards being receptive to his arguments, though, is both understandable and something I’ve seen over many years. So I’m not holding my breath hoping that it’ll be understood.
Silas Loom
Advanced. Forthright. Signifficant.
I asked for anyone else.
Denikin was a bit unfair, I am absolutely in favour of bloody revolutions against Romanovs, and for that matter against Bourbons and Stuarts. And I’m very keen on disposing of the Windsors, without constitutional uproar. I just don’t think that current levels of oppression are anything like high enough to justify the upheaval and risk of tyranny involved in a revolution against today’s powers that be.
And I’d be rather amazed if no-one else here felt similarly.
<<raises hand>>
If revolution means violence, chaos, death and destruction then I would hope that any reasonable person would be opposed.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
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