Freemasons in the UK, a general discussion

[Spymaster]

Spy, you're the one who underestands the symbolism, what's the precise meaning of this icon if used by a mason in context with other masons. I'm not asking you to speculate again about this particlular instance, but within masonry, how would this be interpreted? Is there any difference between the eye on top of the triangle/pyramid and the eye inside it? Do the rays at the top add anything specific?

To be honest I'm not the best person to ask about this sort of stuff. ViolentPanda may be your man for this (not suggesting that he's a mason but he knows a lot about it). There's tons of iconography and symbolism in freemasonry some of which is more used than others. Remember also that the All Seeing Eye was not originally a masonic symbol but one that they themselves borrowed from the Egyptians which they nicked from someone else. If you're particularly interested I can find out more for you but whenever I've come across it in freemasonry it's been used to acknowledge the fact that the Grand Architect (god to many) is observant of all our thoughts and actions. I'm buggered if I can work in any masonic connection to it being painted on Saville's house though.

 

[DotCommunist]

Anyone know much about freemasonry in northern ireland?

Or does the orange order take their place?

 

[ViolentPanda]

What else could it be?

Freemason's tagging Saville's house as a mark of respect?

Scottish Rite up there, isn't it? Who knows what goes through their minds as they do all that Dan Brown shit?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Anyone know much about freemasonry in northern ireland?

Or does the orange order take their place?

Co-existence, often with co-membership. Fewer Masonic lodges than Orange Order lodges, though, and it's very important not to get your sashes mixed up, or it could be very embarrassing.

 

[frogwoman]

To be honest I'm not the best person to ask about this sort of stuff. ViolentPanda may be your man for this (not suggesting that he's a mason but he knows a lot about it). There's tons of iconography and symbolism in freemasonry some of which is more used than others. Remember also that the All Seeing Eye was not originally a masonic symbol but one that they themselves borrowed from the Egyptians which they nicked from someone else. If you're particularly interested I can find out more for you but whenever I've come across it in freemasonry it's been used to acknowledge the fact that the Grand Architect (god to many) is observant of all our thoughts and actions. I'm buggered if I can work in any masonic connection to it being painted on Saville's house though.

god saw everything and will punish saville?

 

[free spirit]

As with all conspiracy theories those promoting them are going to concentrate on the aspects that they can engineer to suit their agenda.

and again?

If you looked carefully at that post, you'd see this bit.

now if I was going to be conspiratorial about it, I could say something along the lines of 'well you would say that'

which would be a bit of a clue that I wasn't being entirely serious, I expect you probably are being genuine, and that you genuinely aren't aware of any serious issues within the organisation.

However, this general rule does pose serious problems when it comes to actually trusting that what freemasons in general say about their organisation when its integrity is being questioned, and is probably one of the key reasons why it'd actually be impossible for any Freemason to actually entirely close off any ideas that there could be something a little more sinister going on than first meets the eye.

It is after all basically instructing freemasons to divert attention away from anything that might damage 'the honour of the worshipful fraternity'.

You obviously interpret this as only relating to the secret ceremonies, but you must surely admit that the way it's worded could easily lead others to interpret this more widely into protecting the organisation from wider accusations that might damage the organisations reputation / honour.

Not much anyone can do about that really except be open and honest as I try to be on freemason threads. Jazzz for example, insists that rank and file master masons like myself are not party to the machinations of those in the upper echelons of the craft. Apart from being bollocks, this ignores the fact that most of us know and socialise with freemasons at every level, not just our own.

The fact that you don't actually realise that this is a major part of the charge against freemasonry is a little telling.

It's that very fact that you are able to socialise with freemasons at every level that actually gives freemasons the access to have undue influence 'at every level' in a way that none freemasons can't have.

At it's core this is the entire nub of the problem, yet you use it in defence of the organisation.

 

[Spymaster]

ugle is not the governing body of all freemasonry

For any generally understood definition of freemasonry, UGLE is the governing body in England.

 

[frogwoman]

why am i not surprised that you are a freemason spy?

 

[free spirit]

Not necessarily, fs. He may have been a mason, but kept his paedo activities separate from his masonic activities. I think that's perfectly possible. If he was a mason, he may very well have considered it wise to hide his paedo evilry from his lodge.

you'll note that all I said is that this is an angle that is yet to come out. How that then leads to 'not necessarily FS' I'm not sure.

eta - if he was though then that's an angle on all of this that is yet to come out

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm still a bit puzzled by freemasonry. Why are you a member, spy? What do you do it for? IRRC, you don't even particularly like many of your fellow lodge members, do you?

Also, do you feel a particular loyalty to fellow masons? If so, do you think that is inherently incompatible with jobs such as copper or judge? Also, do you think it is used to make business deals? If so, don't you think it off, to say the very least, that such deals should be done in secret by a group of self-selected men?

 

[Spymaster]

god saw everything and will punish saville?

Who knows? It's clearly someone up to mischief isn't it? If they really knew he was a member they should've sprayed his lodge number underneath it!

 

[butchersapron]

Because he's a bit of a dick and dicks join dick clubs.

Have you ever profited at the expense of another due to your dick club spymaster?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

you'll note that all I said is that this is an angle that is yet to come out. How that then leads to 'not necessarily FS' I'm not sure.

Fair enough. Apols. I should have said 'not necessarily linked to his paedoness'.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Just going by my collection of interwar hackney gazettes there's some truth that it used to be more widely reported, eg mentioned in obituaries of former mayors, but 200,000 masons in the gas chambers for being masons? I think masonry was banned i. 1933 in germany and probably earlier in italy, so I am sceptical of the telegraph's claim. Plus it makes them all out to be cowardly defeatists.

Yep, banned in '33, internment of Masons for what boiled down to supposedly having a higher allegiance than the Reich went on from then until the fall of the Reich, and as I said, they were interned in concentration camps as "politicals", along with Seventh-Dayers and some Catholics (80-odd thousand of whom also died) and non-mainstream Prods, where many succumbed to illnesses that were exacerbated by overwork and malnutrition.

 

[frogwoman]

i bet spymaster only joined the freemasons as a troll

 

[ViolentPanda]

Annoyingly 'margaret thatcher freemason' only spews forth an internets worth of loon

Try her name plus co-mason.

 

[Spymaster]

why am i not surprised that you are a freemason spy?

There are at least five regular posters on these boards that are, although I think only 2 or 3 of us are "out".

 

[DotCommunist]

There are at least five regular posters on these boards that are, although I think only 2 or 3 of us are "out".

do you identify each other by funny PM's

 

[ViolentPanda]

well I've woken up this morning still thinking this is very odd, and still wondering about a plausible explanation.

Spy, you're the one who underestands the symbolism, what's the precise meaning of this icon if used by a mason in context with other masons. I'm not asking you to speculate again about this particlular instance, but within masonry, how would this be interpreted? Is there any difference between the eye on top of the triangle/pyramid and the eye inside it? Do the rays at the top add anything specific?

In purely symbolic terms, the eye atop signifies divine oversight. If it were a Mason who did the graffiti, he may have been indicating his deity's judgement on Savile, but frankly although some Masonry uses the Eye of Providence/Eye of Horus and Pyramid as symbol, there's far more connection, at least as far as occult literature takes us, with Ceremonial and Ritual Magick of just about every era from Theophrastus von Hohenheim to Chaos Magick, via everything from the Hellfire Club and Aleister Crowley, where it is taken as representing everything from the placing of a curse to the bestowal of blessings. The Rays are often present in representations of the Eye of Horus, and there signify the Sun/divinity.
The eye inside the pyramid also crops up a lot more in Magick than Masonry, but tends to signify self-reflection/self-knowledge, and sometimes good luck most often.

 

[ViolentPanda]

god saw everything and will punish saville?

Yup.

 

[ViolentPanda]

why am i not surprised that you are a freemason spy?

Because he's cunty Simon, and he probably only joined to annoy Kris.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yeah, I think you may have nailed it. A magick-Crowley-type telling Savile that he will be judged for what he did seems very likely.

 

[frogwoman]

Because he's cunty Simon, and he probably only joined to annoy Kris.

I'm not surprised at all he probably joined for the lols and likes wearing aprons and shit

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Savile himself was a (highly) observant Catholic. I'd be very surprised if he was a mason as well. There's only so much ritual a person can handle.

 

[Spymaster]

Why are you a member, spy? What do you do it for?

I originally joined out of curiosity. I was in a pub on Great Queen Street and there were a load of well dressed, polite guys in there having a beer. I got chatting to one of them about who they were and what they got up to, stayed in touch, and about a year later I joined myself.

IRRC, you don't even particularly like many of your fellow lodge members, do you?

That's an overstatement but as I've told you before there's a massive cross-section of society represented. Some freemason's are great friends of mine, others I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire, but I could say that about my cricket club or this place too.

Also, do you feel a particular loyalty to fellow masons?

Not really any more than I feel a particular loyalty to any other friend. They're just a different group of friends. I certainly wouldn't cover for anyone who was committing criminal acts just because they were a freemason, nor would I be expected to.

Also, do you think it is used to make business deals?

I'm not aware of any but I'm sure it's happened. Like I said it would go against masonic principles but if you put a large group of professionals/tradesmen/businessmen together it's inevitable that business will get done. I've not really benefited from business contacts beyond perhaps being introduced to people I may not have otherwise met. A guy at my lodge is an electrician who rewired our place last year (I paid him his regular rate) and another guy is a dentist who gave free treatment to another members wife when they were skint. That kind of thing happens but if all these "business deal"s were that common you'd expect most mason's to be very wealthy men, which is very far from the truth.

 

[DotCommunist]

Savile himself was a (highly) observant Catholic. I'd be very surprised if he was a mason as well. There's only so much ritual a person can handle.

You aren't supposed to have dual membership of those clubs

 

[frogwoman]

I know that his family were religious catholics, didn't know he had been as well.

 

[Spymaster]

I'm not surprised at all he probably joined for the lols and likes wearing aprons and shit

I occasionally get to fuck about with knives and swords too.

 

[frogwoman]

It sounds great

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I know that his family were religious catholics, didn't know he had been as well.

Took mass three times a week and was honoured by the Pope.