UK music industry, bands, work permits and Brexit

[kabbes]

it does make a diff when talking about the egos of musos.
fwiw, I thought Geldof's pretty weak and not-thought-through. but to dismiss an entire industry because of it misses the point.

Who’s dismissing an entire industry? Particularly on the basis of this letter?

This industry is no different to all the other industries that will suffer. People who voted for Brexit understood that industries may well suffer. It wasn’t their priority then and it’s not about to become so now either.

All this guff about how ACTUALLY people didn’t know because the WOOL was being pulled over their EYES is exactly the patronising nonsense that led to remain losing in the first place and is exactly why remain are failing to win hearts and minds now even despite the obvious failings of the government to get Brexit off the ground.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What’s that got to do with Geldof’s letter other than, if it is true, reinforcing my point?

I don't agree with your point. Plenty of leave campaigning politicians pushed the idea that leaving the EU would be good for business, not bad for business. Presumably those concerned about their jobs being taken by foreigners were also concerned with the business they work for not closing down.

Perhaps my point here is that those that voted leave for reasons other than keeping out the foreigners ought to have a rethink, cos as we are heading now, various very nasty things are likely to happen in order to bring about a brexit that satisfies those who want to keep out the foreigners, which has been this government's stated aim for a long while now (on the curious logic that rigorously following a majority view from among just 52% of the population equals democracy).

 

[8ball]

...on the curious logic that rigorously following a majority view from among just 52% of the population who turned up and voted equals democracy

FFY

 

[andysays]

I'm happy to accept that there's a genuine issue here which affects a relatively small number of people, but in the overall context of Brexit and its consequences, bands potentially finding it harder to tour in Europe really isn't that important.

And given Geldof's previous, I really don't think he's the ideal person to be fronting this, if the aim is to gain sympathy from ordinary working people

 

[klang]

This industry is no different to all the other industries that will suffer

no, but people tend to worry about and defend the industries they are part of.

All this guff about how ACTUALLY people didn’t know because the WOOL was being pulled over their EYES is exactly the patronising nonsense that led to remain losing in the first place and is exactly why remain are failing to win hearts and minds now even despite the obvious failings of the government to get Brexit off the ground.

yes

 

[kabbes]

I don't agree with your point. Plenty of leave campaigning politicians pushed the idea that leaving the EU would be good for business, not bad for business. Presumably those concerned about their jobs being taken by foreigners were also concerned with the business they work for not closing down.

So you think Brexit voters voted for something they thought would help business? Your polling shows that in any way, does it?

Perhaps my point here is that those that voted leave for reasons other than keeping out the foreigners ought to have a rethink, cos as we are heading now, various very nasty things are likely to happen in order to bring about a brexit that satisfies those who want to keep out the foreigners, which has been this government's stated aim for a long while now (on the curious logic that rigorously following a majority view from among just 52% of the population equals democracy).

Have you followed the lexit arguments at all on this board? Which of them do you think are undermined by the fact that the music industry, like all other industries, will find import and export harder?

 

[Pickman's model]

FFY

so somewhere in the region of 44.1% of the eligible population (51.9 x 0.85)

e2a:

it should of course be 51.9 x 0.72, 37.4%

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Have you followed the lexit arguments at all on this board? Which of them do you think are undermined by the fact that the music industry, like all other industries, will find import and export harder?

Yes I have. 95 per cent pure fantasy. The rest is simply denial. Denial of the nasty reality that brexit has always promised to be and continues to promise to be.

 

[jusali]

"and going on about rock 'n roll to the worst dancer in british political history isn't really the way to do it."

LMAO

 

[8ball]

All this guff about how ACTUALLY people didn’t know because the WOOL was being pulled over their EYES is exactly the patronising nonsense that led to remain losing in the first place and is exactly why remain are failing to win hearts and minds now even despite the obvious failings of the government to get Brexit off the ground.

A vote on the deal might clarify whether the Bregretters are a myth...

 

[kabbes]

Yes I have. 95 per cent pure fantasy. The rest is simply denial. Denial of the nasty reality that brexit has always promised to be and continues to promise to be.

And the fact that musicians will find it harder to tour will throw light onto what you view as denial?

Seriously, what does Geldof’s letter offer to anyone who believes in Brexit? Anyone at all? It’s nothing but a pointless ego trip. Worse, if you believe in remain, it is both a missed opportunity and a cementing of lines. It’s a patronising statement of something people will already understand, which will do nothing but antagonise.

 

[kabbes]

A vote on the deal might clarify whether the Bregretters are a myth...

Maybe. Or maybe it would become about other things as all these votes tend to.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Well, people certainly know that all industries are going to find it more difficult post-Brexit. They knew that when they voted out. If it didn't stop them voting out when they thought about medicine and scientific research and food and the import/export of everyday tat, I don't think they're suddenly going to change their mind just because of the fact that sound engineers are going to maybe need a visa.

I think a large percentage of 'out' voters didn't consider the ramifications, and of those, a large percentage probably couldn't spell ramifications.

 

[klang]

rumafikashions?

 

[kebabking]

A vote on the deal might clarify whether the Bregretters are a myth...

I'm not convinced that Bregretters are, in any relevant quantity, a real thing, but I think there are probably more remainers who didn't bother voting than leavers.

Whether those people rousing themselves to vote in a future referendum would swing it for remain I don't know - personally I think that views have hardened.

 

[Dr. Furface]

That attitude pretty much sums up why Brexit won.

Certainly Geldof's Farage-baiting on the Thames played right into the Brexiteers hands, but this is a rather more considered intervention. Geldof is wealthy enough not to be too impacted by Brexit personally but he realises what's at stake for the music biz, and for a huge part of our cultural identity. Industrialists from sectors such as cars, construction, aerospace etc have spoken up about the negative effects of Brexit, so fair play to him for standing up for the music industry. Of course it'll fall on deaf ears to the vast majority of Brexit supporters, most of whom think British culture is nothing more than the royal family, military history and fox hunting.

 

[DotCommunist]

cba

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So you think Brexit voters voted for something they thought would help business? Your polling shows that in any way, does it??

You're changing your argument here. First you said that most leave voters knew brexit would be bad for business. I see no evidence of that at all. Many no doubt didn't give much of a stuff either way, but there's no evidence that large numbers of people actively disbelieved those campaigning for brexit who proclaimed a brave new world of opportunity but voted for brexit anyway. Two plus years of constant banging on about immigration, from all sides at various points, took their toll. Propaganda does work.

Many people vote in really stupid ways, btw, for really fucking stupid reasons. Always have. How the fuck do you think the tories keep getting in? Boris Cunt Johnson was voted in as mayor of London. I wouldn't reify some kind of wisdom of the vote.

 

[kabbes]

The hero of the core right Brexit vote, Boris, summed up his position as “fuck business”. That vote isn’t going to change just because Geldof throws up his hands in horror.

 

[kabbes]

cba

Yeah, I think this sums it up. If people can’t see why Geldof’s letter changes nothing then they are doomed to lose the argument again and again.

 

[sealion]

Whether those people rousing themselves to vote in a future referendum would swing it for remain I don't know

They shouldn't be allowed a vote if they coudn't be bothered first time out, that should apply to leavers or remain.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm not convinced that Bregretters are, in any relevant quantity, a real thing, but I think there are probably more remainers who didn't bother voting than leavers.

Whether those people rousing themselves to vote in a future referendum would swing it for remain I don't know - personally I think that views have hardened.

it depends also in part whether more leavers have died than remainers gained the vote - whether the demographics have changed to any appreciable extent.

but the core point which most remainers/2nd reffers haven't grasped is that it is perfectly possible for the second referendum to repeat the result of the first. how many 3rd reffers would there really be?

 

[cupid_stunt]

I am old enough to remember when it was the left that wanted out of the EU, and referendum results were respected.

 

[kabbes]

You're changing your argument here. First you said that most leave voters knew brexit would be bad for business. I see no evidence of that at all. Many no doubt didn't give much of a stuff either way, but there's no evidence that large numbers of people actively disbelieved those campaigning for brexit who proclaimed a brave new world of opportunity but voted for brexit anyway. Two plus years of constant banging on about immigration, from all sides at various points, took their toll. Propaganda does work.

This industry is no different to all the other industries that will suffer. People who voted for Brexit understood that industries may well suffer. It wasn’t their priority then and it’s not about to become so now either.

All this guff about how ACTUALLY people didn’t know because the WOOL was being pulled over their EYES is exactly the patronising nonsense that led to remain losing in the first place and is exactly why remain are failing to win hearts and minds now even despite the obvious failings of the government to get Brexit off the ground.

Many people vote in really stupid ways, btw, for really fucking stupid reasons. Always have. How the fuck do you think the tories keep getting in? Boris Cunt Johnson was voted in as mayor of London. I wouldn't reify some kind of wisdom of the vote.

Im reifying nothing. If you want decisions to change, you have to win the vote, is all.

 

[8ball]

I'm not convinced that Bregretters are, in any relevant quantity, a real thing, but I think there are probably more remainers who didn't bother voting than leavers.

Whether those people rousing themselves to vote in a future referendum would swing it for remain I don't know - personally I think that views have hardened.

Views have hardened, but of the non-voters they have hardened in both directions.
Of people who have changed their minds, I have only met formerly-Brexit-remainers, and I have met enough that it seems reasonable they could swing it.

I don't see why non-voters would slant in a different direction to this.

 

[Pickman's model]

I am old enough to remember when it was the left that wanted out of the EU, and referendum results were respected.

that was back in the days before the great majority of people wanted to line politicians up against a wall and machine gun them tho

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Im reifying nothing. If you want decisions to change, you have to win the vote, is all.

Was immigration on the ballot paper? This is part of the problem here. If there is a majority that doesn't want to put up a hard border around the UK, they aren't being heard. If you can't see that brexit has been hijacked by an extremely unpleasant agenda, you're being wilfully blind here.

 

[8ball]

I am old enough to remember when it was the left that wanted out of the EU, and referendum results were respected.

Yep, I was one of that "left".
Respecting an "advisory" referendum means returning to the decision if significant new information emerges.

There's a reason why we didn't just have one general election and consider the vote binding for ever.

 

[Wilf]

Brexit is a fuck up and the brexiteers in the government have fucked pretty much everything in the negotiations. But like everything else, ultimately people who previously traded together and want to carry on doing so will find that some kind of arrangements have been put in place that allow them to do just that. It will be messy, shitty and some may go to the wall. But ultimately, the uk will carry on trading with Europe - and will carry on sending bands over there too.

 

[editor]

I don't agree with your point. Plenty of leave campaigning politicians pushed the idea that leaving the EU would be good for business, not bad for business. Presumably those concerned about their jobs being taken by foreigners were also concerned with the business they work for not closing down.

Perhaps my point here is that those that voted leave for reasons other than keeping out the foreigners ought to have a rethink, cos as we are heading now, various very nasty things are likely to happen in order to bring about a brexit that satisfies those who want to keep out the foreigners, which has been this government's stated aim for a long while now (on the curious logic that rigorously following a majority view from among just 52% of the population equals democracy).

It was nowhere near 52% of the population.

Show this chart to anyone who says Brexit is the 'will of the British people'