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The Ashes 2023

littlebabyjesus said:
Harmison and Hoggard were summarily ditched to team up Broad and Anderson for the first time. Hoggard never played again. That's the nature of representative sport - if you're playing, that means someone else isn't, so there's little room for sentiment. It should not be up to Anderson whether or not he plays, and designated 'farewell tests' shouldn't really be a thing. Cook got one, but that's because he retired about four years too early. He was still in the team on merit.
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That’s not what Harmison says. He knew his standards had dropped and his place wasn’t justifiable on current merit alone. He knew there wasn’t more in the tank and decided not to drag it out.
 
I don't think he's being picked for sentimental reasons or that he'll get to pick when he plays. I think the selectors have a lot of faith in him, and with good reason. There's a lot of talk as if he's obviously past it and done here but he's probably got 300 wickets since people first started talking like that about him. It might well be that this does turn out to be the end for him but you can see why they're not just chucking him out after a couple of bad games can't you.
 
It's very hollow. What a shame, even the captain acknowledges that. I hope Bazball will still be kicking the next time round but I doubt it. It was a ride though.

 
WhyLikeThis said:
That’s not what Harmison says. He knew his standards had dropped and his place wasn’t justifiable on current merit alone. He knew there wasn’t more in the tank and decided not to drag it out.
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The tour I'm talking about is New Zealand 2008. Harmison and Hoggard were dropped for the second test, replaced by Broad and Anderson, in the team together for the first time. Hoggard never played again, but Harmison did play a few times after that. At the time, the decision felt ruthless (after just one iffy game), particularly for Hoggard, who had played some 60-odd consecutive tests up to that point. It was the final dismantling of the glorious 2005 pace quartet.

That's kind of the point. In representative sport, everyone gets their chance at the expense of somebody else, including Jimmy Anderson. Hence it's unfair on others to pick players for sentimental reasons imho.
 
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Think he averages 35 or so at the oval. If it was Trent bridge maybe.

Didn’t Swann realise he no longer had it in the middle of an Ashes tour and just quit. Seem to recall he left England in the lurch a bit but at least he made a decision.
 
Elpenor said:
Think he averages 35 or so at the oval. If it was Trent bridge maybe.

Didn’t Swann realise he no longer had it in the middle of an Ashes tour and just quit. Seem to recall he left England in the lurch a bit but at least he made a decision.
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Yeah, he was injured, though. Knew he couldn't do it any more. Not ideal to quit like that, but better that than to carry on knowing he wasn't up to it. Anderson quite possibly believes he can regain his form. I don't know. Shouldn't be his decision, though.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
The tour I'm talking about is New Zealand 2008. Harmison and Hoggard were dropped for the second test, replaced by Broad and Anderson, in the team together for the first time. Hoggard never played again, but Harmison did play a few times after that. At the time, the decision felt ruthless (after just one iffy game), particularly for Hoggard, who had played some 60-odd consecutive tests up to that point. It was the final dismantling of the glorious 2005 pace quartet.
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Harmison says he could have pushed on but decided to have that fairy tale final test at the Oval, winning the Ashes.

I was there on the final day, got half cut and had to sleep it off until the next morning in my van. A fine outing.
 
Petcha said:
Maybe I'm sentimental, well I definitely am, but I'd like Jimmy to at least not have his last test be the last one in Manchester. Because I really can't see him every playing another one after the Oval.

And we could argue about it but I can't be arsed, but this is a dead rubber to me. There's nothing to lose, the Aussies did what they came to do. If rain hadn't intervened in Manchester then sure, drop him for this one. Might as well indulge him. Even he must know the game's up.
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All other series are fought as full series, which you win, lose or draw. Eng v Aus is a series. Even more so, England want to establish themselves as up with the very best - and then there's also the World Test Championship points.
 
WhyLikeThis said:
Jimmy has said himself his ambition of being a player-coach, referencing Bryan Robson and this specific photo:

View attachment 384403

Dumping him out of the squad would be wrong headed due to all the knowledge he has accumulated over the years. One example given is the wobble seam delivery he taught the WSC in a week. That hive of knowledge must be captured.
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I'm sure he'd be a great player-coach at Lancashire, but not for England.
 
WhyLikeThis said:
Harmison says he could have pushed on but decided to have that fairy tale final test at the Oval, winning the Ashes.

I was there on the final day, got half cut and had to sleep it off until the next morning in my van. A fine outing.
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Ok well if that's true, then I don't agree with that either. Harmison was certainly past his best in that 2009 series. I don't remember it being thought sentimental to have picked him, though. Deciding to end on a high after the game, certainly. Why not?
 
If it's true that he was picked for sentimental reasons and given the chance of a farewell. It sounds very unlikely to me, I have to say. I don't remember anything about it at the time. It was just about an Ashes decider to be won.

But of course, deciding to retire afterwards on that high is a different matter.
 
That’s not what I said. He wasn’t picked for sentimental reasons, he chose not to go on tour after the Ashes but to have that fairy tale ending at the Oval.
 
WhyLikeThis said:
That’s not what I said. He wasn’t picked for sentimental reasons, he chose not to go on tour after the Ashes but to have that fairy tale ending at the Oval.
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Right ok. Crossed wires. My point here is something a bit different. Fine of course for Anderson to choose this as his farewell. Not fine if the selectors choose him over someone else to give him a farewell. He can choose to stop whenever he likes. But he can't choose to keep being selected.

Only bad things come of that kind of sentimentality. Tendulkar played on two years too long. It wasn't nice to see him missing straight ones in a way he never had done before and he should have been given the heave-ho, but India were sentimental in that instance.
 
Haven’t England been naming the team 2 days before tests?

I’ve not seen nowt declared.

Could this be an indicator of the Anderson consternation?
 
WhyLikeThis said:
Haven’t England been naming the team 2 days before tests?

I’ve not seen nowt declared.

Could this be an indicator of the Anderson consternation?
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Could be. They said that they need to see how the bowlers pull up, though, so it could equally be that Mark Wood isn't yet certain to be fit. :(
 
WhyLikeThis said:
Anderson reaffirms his desire to keep playing. No chat of retirement.

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He's right that his pace isn't down and he's not bowled horrendously, but he overstates how penetrative he's been. He has been the least penetrative of England's bowlers and that's why he has taken the least wickets. I'd like to see numbers about the amount of movement Anderson has found compared to others in this series. I'd bet quite a lot of money that he's found less movement than most of the other bowlers.

Anyhow, unchanged 11 for The Oval. I think that's rough on Tongue. We'll see.
 
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