The Ashes 2023

[Zapp Brannigan]

Stone is in that genuine fast bowler category I think. Sadly he seems to be permanently injured - although Wood has had a late career flourish so maybe he can do similar. Tongue I don't think is quite as quick but definitely fast enough to be useful.

It does seem like those extra 5mph come with a whole host of potential injury issues. So what we need is the world's best physio & recovery team, coupled with a pool of 97mph quicks so we can select them seamlessly for 1 test at a time. And a time machine to have a slightly younger Jimmy being metronomically accurate from the other end at <2RPO and swinging it round corners when conditions are favourable. And Broad to permanently be on one of his hot spells. And Woakes to always be playing at home. And Stokes to be fit to bowl. And a spinner.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

It does seem like those extra 5mph come with a whole host of potential injury issues. So what we need is the world's best physio & recovery team, coupled with a pool of 97mph quicks so we can select them seamlessly for 1 test at a time. And a time machine to have a slightly younger Jimmy being metronomically accurate from the other end at <2RPO and swinging it round corners when conditions are favourable. And Broad to permanently be on one of his hot spells. And Woakes to always be playing at home. And Stokes to be fit to bowl. And a spinner.

Ultimately fast bowling isn't a very healthy activity is it, the injury rate is pretty shocking even for slightly slower bowlers and the stress on the body for those bowling really top speed is massive. All those stress fractures of the back.

So you need a pool of probably six or seven fast bowlers I think and as you say England are going to need a lot of replacements pretty soon. Tongue looks to be one, Potts and Fisher too. Maybe Saqib Mahmood. None of them are really properly proven at test level though so there'll be a lot of work to do.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Stone is in that genuine fast bowler category I think. Sadly he seems to be permanently injured - although Wood has had a late career flourish so maybe he can do similar. Tongue I don't think is quite as quick but definitely fast enough to be useful.

Easy to forget how special Mark Wood is. The fastest bowler in test cricket right now is either him or Anrich Nortje. Nobody else really comes close. So thinking in km/h, a genuine quick is someone who regularly bowls over 140ks (87 mph). Tongue is just about on 140ks. Stone was a little over. Mitchell Starc hits 145 at his top speed. Wood and Nortje regularly hit 150.

You can't really legislate for that kind of speed. It's either there somewhere in your ranks or it isn't, and mostly it isn't. Anyone regularly in the 140s is potentially a handful, though.

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

Ultimately fast bowling isn't a very healthy activity is it, the injury rate is pretty shocking even for slightly slower bowlers and the stress on the body for those bowling really top speed is massive. All those stress fractures of the back.

So you need a pool of probably six or seven fast bowlers I think and as you say England are going to need a lot of replacements pretty soon. Tongue looks to be one, Potts and Fisher too. Maybe Saqib Mahmood. None of them are really properly proven at test level though so there'll be a lot of work to do.

It has been a long, long time since England weren't picking Broad, Anderson, Stokes, a.n.other but often Woakes, as a quartet of quicks. We've been saying for a long time that there will be a period of transition, and getting Potts and Robinson some test experience while rotating Broad/Anderson/Woakes has been a good start, but it really does feel like the end of an era.

Stokes I think is a batter/captain now - maybe the odd spell here and there, but not selected as a plan A part of the attack. Anderson is on the home straight if not at the finishing line. Broad's still got it but for how much longer?

I think in the not very distant future we'll be looking at Broad, Robinson, and 2 from Wood/Stone/Tongue/Woakes/Potts. All highly competent, but it's just not the same aura as prime Jimmy and Co.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It has been a long, long time since England weren't picking Broad, Anderson, Stokes, a.n.other but often Woakes, as a quartet of quicks. We've been saying for a long time that there will be a period of transition, and getting Potts and Robinson some test experience while rotating Broad/Anderson/Woakes has been a good start, but it really does feel like the end of an era.

Stokes I think is a batter/captain now - maybe the odd spell here and there, but not selected as a plan A part of the attack. Anderson is on the home straight if not at the finishing line. Broad's still got it but for how much longer?

I think in the not very distant future we'll be looking at Broad, Robinson, and 2 from Wood/Stone/Tongue/Woakes/Potts. All highly competent, but it's just not the same aura as prime Jimmy and Co.

Things change, new people come through. Wood and Woakes are no spring chickens either. I really liked the look of Mahmood but who knows if he'll ever be back. Potts has done little wrong. Tongue impressed. Then there is Jamie Overton, who was a bit unlucky only to get one match last year. It doesn't sound hopeful for Stone, and then Archer, will he ever return?

As said, fast bowling is very hard.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Unchanged for the Oval.

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

England have at least been thinking ahead here (for once) with the fast bowling development contracts. This is the current list which should give an indication of their thinking, Brydon Carse is the one we haven't mentioned:

England Pace Bowling Development Contracts:

Brydon Carse (Durham)
Matthew Fisher (Yorkshire)
Saqib Mahmood (Lancashire)
Craig Overton (Somerset)
Jamie Overton (Surrey)
Olly Stone (Nottinghamshire from 1 Nov 22)

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

The other thing here, as I was banging on about before the last test, is that they're going to need some of these at least to be able to bat to some level as well. The Overtons can, any of the others?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Unchanged for the Oval.

I think that's tough on Tongue. It feels like it's more in hope than expectation with Anderson. Here's hoping for a glorious return to form.

 

[Wilf]

Unchanged for the Oval.

Tongue in for Anderson? A big call and would end Anderson's career in practice, but warranted in a purely cricketing sense.

 

[WhyLikeThis]

J Overton, Stone & Mahmood are the only reasonably quick bowlers likely to prosper abroad. The likes of Potts, Fisher and the wrong Overton are for domestic heroics only.

Anyways, the umpires are due some “routine” auditing for restricting fast bowling due to bad light when they were both wearing shades. Some very meticulous “routine” examinations.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Ah I see, unchanged squad. Yes, Tongue has to come in for Anderson imo. And yes, that would effectively end Anderson's career. But I can't see him not retiring this summer now. It's a full six months until the next test.

 

[WhyLikeThis]

Tongue in for Anderson? A big call and would end Anderson's career in practice, but warranted in a purely cricketing sense.

Not necessarily. I’d def play Tongue at the Oval but would definitely take Anderson to India and have him available for the Windies and Sri Lanka. He just won’t be treated as Anderson just another bowler picked on form…plus a guaranteed last farewell test next summer (when its less important).

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not necessarily. I’d def play Tongue at the Oval but would definitely take Anderson to India and have him available for the Windies and Sri Lanka. He just won’t be treated as Anderson just another bowler picked on form…plus a guaranteed last farewell test next summer (when its less important).

But if you're picking on form, Anderson gets dropped from the squad now. He's been England's least impressive bowler this summer, sad to say. A glorious return to form aged 41 isn't so likely.

Yes, Anderson has a fantastic record in India, one of the best ever of all the overseas quicks. He could perhaps do a job, but his big skill in Asia is reverse swing. Wood outdid him in that department at OT.

 

[Wilf]

Ah I see, unchanged squad. Yes, Tongue has to come in for Anderson imo. And yes, that would effectively end Anderson's career. But I can't see him not retiring this summer now. It's a full six months until the next test.

The only thing is, whenever Anderson is effectively retired, how does that happen, do they let him know he's not the playing beforehand? At one level that gives him a chance to make a statement and say 'I've have a wonderful 56 years playing test cricket, but...'. Though equally, neither he nor Stokes would want that being the story in the lead up to the test. Not impossible that they might still play him, though more likely they drop him for Tongue. He then retires at the end of the series... whip round, cheese and wine, off colour leaving cards etc.

Suspect he'll get a knighthood at some point. He'd go up in my estimation if he turned it down, but that would be too much to expect.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The only thing is, whenever Anderson is effectively retired, how does that happen, do they let him know he's not the playing beforehand? At one level that gives him a chance to make a statement and say 'I've have a wonderful 56 years playing test cricket, but...'. Though equally, neither he nor Stokes would want that being the story in the lead up to the test. Not impossible that they might still play him, though more likely they drop him for Tongue. He then retires at the end of the series... whip round, cheese and wine, off colour leaving cards etc.

Suspect he'll get a knighthood at some point. He'd go up in my estimation if he turned it down, but that would be too much to expect.

I think exactly this. He is 'rested' at the Oval, perhaps in the name of an imaginary niggle, then announces his retirement after England have secured victory.

 

[Wilf]

I think that's tough on Tongue. It feels like it's more in hope than expectation with Anderson. Here's hoping for a glorious return to form.

If Josh doesn't get picked, would it be a case of Tongue in check?

Coat.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

There is another strong possibility, which is that Mark Wood can't go again, so both Anderson and Tongue play. That might even be the bookie's favourite.

 

[Petcha]

No, Jimmy will play. Baz and Stokes for all their brusque alpha maleness are actually quite sentimental I think. There's no way they're gonna drop him.

 

[Elpenor]

Anderson had a good record in England till this year didn’t he? So the good record in India seems a bit irrelevant

 

[WhyLikeThis]

Jimmy has said himself his ambition of being a player-coach, referencing Bryan Robson and this specific photo:



Dumping him out of the squad would be wrong headed due to all the knowledge he has accumulated over the years. One example given is the wobble seam delivery he taught the WSC in a week. That hive of knowledge must be captured.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

At some point, you wonder if he might not consider dropping himself. I still think a tactical niggle would be a wise move.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Anderson had a good record in England till this year didn’t he? So the good record in India seems a bit irrelevant

He's lost his magic this summer, for sure. I've never heard him complain about pitches being kryptonite to him before. Both his conventional and his reverse swing have been down, and the latter is why he was so good in India. At some point we have to believe the evidence of decline that is before our eyes. It's no disgrace - he's 41 this week, it's unbelievable that he's even still in the frame.

 

[Wilf]

Really can't see Anderson going on any further overseas trips, either by retiring or management not picking him. It's not a good look for the future of English bowling and then there's the question of 'is he going get any better than he's bowling now'. Erm, no. Also, overseas trips take a bit more out of you than domestic.

 

[WhyLikeThis]

Harmison (a good friend of Key) reckons Anderson may be given a choice before the Oval, one farewell test in south London next week and that’s it or an uncertain next 12 months with no guarantee of being picked for a fairy tale goodbye.

Personally, I think it would be madness to pick Anderson for a must win game. Let him have that against the Windies or Sri Lanka, once those series are in the bag.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Harmison (a good friend of Key) reckons Anderson may be given a choice before the Oval, one farewell test in south London next week and that’s it or an uncertain next 12 months with no guarantee of being picked for a fairy tale goodbye.

Personally, I think it would be madness to pick Anderson for a must win game. Let him have that against the Windies or Sri Lanka, once those series are in the bag.

If that's true (and it sounds unlikely), it's really stupid. In a dead rubber, I would consider giving Anderson a farewell, but this is anything but that, so they have to pick the team they think will win. I don't see how that includes Anderson. The next 12 months should be utterly irrelevant.

Harmison and Hoggard were summarily ditched to team up Broad and Anderson for the first time. Hoggard never played again. That's the nature of representative sport - if you're playing, that means someone else isn't, so there's little room for sentiment. It should not be up to Anderson whether or not he plays, and designated 'farewell tests' shouldn't really be a thing. Cook got one, but that's because he retired about four years too early. He was still in the team on merit.

 

[Petcha]

This is effectively a dead rubber though. The Ashes are lost.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This is effectively a dead rubber though. The Ashes are lost.

It absolutely is not. The series is not lost.

 

[Tones]

This is effectively a dead rubber though. The Ashes are lost.

If England wins the next test, then the Ashes have not been lost; they've just not been regained.

 

[Petcha]

It absolutely is not. The series is not lost.

Maybe I'm sentimental, well I definitely am, but I'd like Jimmy to at least not have his last test be the last one in Manchester. Because I really can't see him every playing another one after the Oval.

And we could argue about it but I can't be arsed, but this is a dead rubber to me. There's nothing to lose, the Aussies did what they came to do. If rain hadn't intervened in Manchester then sure, drop him for this one. Might as well indulge him. Even he must know the game's up.