Operation pillar of cloud. Israeli assault on Gaza

[Bernie Gunther]

Sorry, not understanding here what the historical and/or ideological relationship of Hamas to Mussolini et al is meant to be.

Which is presumably something you have to demonstrate if you're going to credibly call them fascists?

Are you referring to some dodgy connections via the history of the Muslim Brotherhood or is this more of an ideological claim?

 

[ViolentPanda]

And the Hamas fascists never posture do they.

Do HAMAS support corporatism?
Are they profoundly secular?
Do they espouse narratives around ethnic purity?

I'm sure that HAMAS members do posture, for the approval of the small (relative to the population of Israel) population the represent, but they don't have the F16s, the tanks and the brigades of infantry, do they? Their posturing is seen for what it is by everyone except the state of Israel and its' apologists - the fist-shaking of the impotent.

You disgust me, both for your poor grasp of what fascism is, and for your apologia for brutality and murder.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I want a negotiated and peaceful solution to the crisis. The Hamas Clerical fascists (and that's what they are whether you like or not) are a major barrier.

I've yet to work out how a secularist ideology can be at all clerical. Sounds to me like you're bashing out over some lame "Islamofascist" trope that didn't even have legs when the first lamebrain coined it post-11th September.

Exactly what did they think would be the response to YET ANOTHER killing? You say Hamas has "unpalatable politics" but they are the ones committed to genocide. It's central to their founding statement.

That'd be the founding statement which they've offered to withdraw?

The desire is there. You choose to ignore it.

Says the guy who either ignores fact, or is ignorant of it.

So its' people like you that needs to stop it.

Typical self-righteousness. It's not "your side" that's at fault. It's everyone else.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You didn't answer the question.

The cognitive dissonance between his clear-cut Israel right/HAMAS-Gaza wrong, and admitting that the state of Israel has executed an entirely disproportionate response means that he can't answer the question.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Fuck him anyway.

 

[dominion]

Hamas are not secular. they are Islamists gradually introducing an Islamic state. I cannot take you seriously.

Clerical fascism is all too real. 9/11 has nowt to do with it.

Here we have the problem:

The cognitive dissonance between his clear-cut Israel right/HAMAS-Gaza wrong..blah, blah..

Your position is simply the reverse.

I think the attacks were somewhat disproportionate perhaps you would like to suggest what would be? Also would you like to condemn the killing of the unarmed Israeli civilian?

Or are you the self righteous one?

 

[SpineyNorman]

I want a negotiated and peaceful solution to the crisis. The Hamas Clerical fascists (and that's what they are whether you like or not) are a major barrier. Exactly what did they think would be the response to YET ANOTHER killing? You say Hamas has "unpalatable politics" but they are the ones committed to genocide. It's central to their founding statement. The desire is there. You choose to ignore it.

So its' people like you that needs to stop it.

1) No they're not - they're authoritarian, reactionary and arguably little better than fascists but they are not fascists.

2) I could use the same slippery dishonest tactic as you and ask what the Israeli state thought the reaction to the continued blockade might be but I'm not a disingenuous rat like you so.

Instead I'll ask you to answer the fucking question - do you think air strikes and the slaughter of innocent children is a proportionate response?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Hamas are not secular. they are Islamists gradually introducing an Islamic state. I cannot take you seriously.

Clerical fascism is all too real. 9/11 has nowt to do with it.

Here we have the problem:



Your position is simply the reverse.

I think the attacks were somewhat disproportionate perhaps you would like to suggest what would be? Also would you like to condemn the killing of the unarmed Israeli civilian?

Or are you the self righteous one?

OK - once you've answered the question you've been dodging for several posts now, you can then go on to offer a definition of fascism and explain how Hamas fit it (you realise that what VP was getting at was that fascism is a secular ideology and so cannot be clerical, right?)

 

[Casually Red]

No one seems to remember that what started this was the murder of an Israeli civilian.

Does his life not matter?.

bullshit civilian, he was a private military contractor . Neo liberal economic policies dont make him any less of a party to the conflict than a member of an engineering regiment.

Hamas declared the response as a dangerous "escalation". An admission they started this as usual.

more bullshit . Its pretty obvious this was in retaliation for the Zionist military shooting dead, in the back, an unarmed 15 year old Palestinian child the other week near Ramallah . And whats more the group which has claimed responsibility is the Popular Resistance Committees, avowedly secular and with its roots in the anti Islamist Tamasin movement . So your clerical fascism bullshit is just more dreary kneejerk bullshit .

 

[Casually Red]

OK - once you've answered the question you've been dodging for several posts now, you can then go on to offer a definition of fascism and explain how Hamas fit it (you realise that what VP was getting at was that fascism is a secular ideology and so cannot be clerical, right?)

hes talking rubbish anyway, because Hamas never even did it .

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Still not seeing a credible argument for associating Hamas with fascism dominion.

Something that shows what the ideological and/or historical connections between the two movements are.

I can imagine that you might make some sort of historical argument via the Muslim Brotherhood, but I'd like to see it laid out please before taking you at all seriously.

Have you got such an argument?

Or are you just tossing loaded language around?

 

[SpineyNorman]

They shouldn't have shot the bloke working on the walls of the biggest open air prison in the world, no. It wasn't justified (he wasn't the one who decided to put the wall there) and it wasn't politically sensible either.

A proportionate response? I dunno - shoot the person who shot him? Definitely don't start air strikes against innocent civilians and fucking kill kids.

You're a disgusting fucking rotter dominion.

 

[dominion]

No Bernie, I think the term Clerical fascism is actually a useful one to describe the Islamists.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Is the 'fascism' bit of 'clerical fascism' supposed to refer in any way to actual historical fascism or is it more a case of 'fascism = something I don't like'?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I mean, if I were to call Likud and associated political organisations (e.g. Betar) 'neo-fascist' I'd expect to be asked to produce some sort of evidence and reasoning to back that view up ...

 

[SpineyNorman]

No Bernie, I think the term Clerical fascism is actually a useful one to describe the Islamists.

Yes, you've asserted that several times now. What you've yet to do is give anything approaching a credible argument to justify that assertion.

So once you've answered the first question of mine you've avoided - are the air strikes and murder of children a proportionate response - you can go on to answer the second question you've avoided - what's your working definition of fascism and how do Hamas fit it?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Or alternatively you could just fuck off back to Harry's place.

 

[dominion]

I have long viewed Communism as Red Fascism so I don't like.

Communism, Fascism and Religious fundamentalism are all much the same when it comes to the way the individual is oppressed and murdered in the name of ideology.

Just seen your latest message SpineyNorman. Not sure why you think I should respond to your childish abuse.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

I have long viewed Communism as Red Fascism so I don't like.

Communism, Fascism and Religious fundamentalism are all much the same when it comes to the way the individual is oppressed and murdered in the name of ideology.

Just seen your latest message SpineyNorman. Not sure why you think I should respond to your childish abuse.

Sling your fucking hook, you crack pot.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I have long viewed Communism as Red Fascism so I don't like.

Communism, Fascism and Religious fundamentalism are all much the same when it comes to the way the individual is oppressed and murdered in the name of ideology.

Just seen your latest message SpineyNorman. Not sure why you think I should respond to your childish abuse.

So basically, you're admitting to being intellectually muddled, confused on a fundamental level about politics and history and hopeless at arguing your case?

 

[Casually Red]

No Bernie, I think the term Clerical fascism is actually a useful one to describe the Islamists.

well its certainly useful if you want to continue with the anti zionism is anti semitism trope. But its totally useless in blaming Hamas for shooting the military contractor , because it wasnt them . Nor was it the motivation for the measured reprisal in response for the murder of a 15 year old kid by the zionist military machine.

 

[Casually Red]

I have long viewed Communism as Red Fascism so I don't like.

Communism, Fascism and Religious fundamentalism are all much the same when it comes to the way the individual is oppressed and murdered in the name of ideology.

Just seen your latest message SpineyNorman. Not sure why you think I should respond to your childish abuse.

go piss up a rope you zionist fuckpot

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Bugger, I thought we had a live one ...

Oh well.

<goes back to watching xmas TV>

 

[SpineyNorman]

I have long viewed Communism as Red Fascism so I don't like.

Communism, Fascism and Religious fundamentalism are all much the same when it comes to the way the individual is oppressed and murdered in the name of ideology.

Just seen your latest message SpineyNorman. Not sure why you think I should respond to your childish abuse.

Right - so it's just another way of saying 'politics I don't like'.

It's quite simple - unless you justify your use of the term 'fascist' people will have little choice but to conclude that you haven't got a clue what you're talking about. Though I think, given the nonsensical lunacy quoted above, it's probably a bit late for you to prevent people from drawing that very conclusion.

 

[SpineyNorman]

And learn to use the quote facility properly, that way people will know you've responded to them.

 

[Casually Red]

and fuck off as well

 

[SpineyNorman]

Yes, of all the things I've been trying to get across to you on here dominion the most important is that you should fuck off.

 

[dominion]

And you wonder why I think Communists are as bad as fascists.

 

[Lo Siento.]

And you wonder why I think Communists are as bad as fascists.

No one was wondering.

 

[Casually Red]