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Operation pillar of cloud. Israeli assault on Gaza

If you're interested there is a discussion on youtube between Norm and a couple of others about this. Helped to pass couple of hours at work. If you're interested but can't find it I'll dig out the link.
 
Breaking on the BBC ticker that they're going to dig up Yasser Arafat to establish whether he was poisoned :eek:
 
polonium they recon.

elbows posted on this a week ago- apparently russian specialists will be helping to identify if it was polonium or not. And they should know, eh uncle vlad.
 
Abby Martin of Russia Today’s Brainwash Update pointed out that Israel’s targeting of Gaza media centers, which killed journalists and endangered employees of many news organizations, was a war crime. (She was hardly alone in this). She was the victim of a smear attempt by the Israel lobby, which accused her of support for terrorism (because she dared call illegal Israeli actions illegal). If more journalists stood up to such smear campaigns with her feistiness, the world would be a better place. Watch her let her detractors have it:
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Text from Juan Cole's blog

 
FOOTBALL STARS RALLY IN SUPPORT OF PALESTINE

As Israel prepares to announce the draw for UEFA’s under-21 football finals in June next year, the Red Card Israeli Racism campaign has put out the following news release.
FOOTBALL STARS RALLY IN SUPPORT OF PALESTINE
+ FREDERIC KANOUTE, MOUSSA SOW, DEMBA BA, JACQUES FATY SAY UEFA IS REWARDING ISRAEL FOR “ACTIONS CONTRARY TO SPORTING VALUES”
+ MPS AND OTHER EMINENT BRITS SAY ISRAEL MUST NOT HOST UEFA UNDER 21 FINALS
Nov 27 – On the eve of the announcement in Tel Aviv of the draw for the Euro 2013 under-21 finals next June, some of the biggest names in European football have condemned Israel ’s military attack on Gaza which killed 170 people, including Palestinian boys playing football, and destroyed vital sports infrastructure.
Former Tottenham and Sevilla striker Frederic Kanoute is among those signing a statement referring to Israel’s hosting of the U-21 championship as rewarding it “for actions that are contrary to sporting values”. (See full statement below)
On November 8, 13-year-old Ahmed Younis Khader Abu Daqqa was shot in the abdomen by the Israeli military while playing football with his friends in ‘Abassan village, east of the southern Gaza Strip town of Khan Yunis . He died in hospital shortly afterwards. Four other boys were also killed.
The Palestinian Paralympic Committee offices, along with a stadium and sports complex where the Palestine team prepared for London 2012, were among facilities wiped out by Israeli bomb attacks in the days that followed.
A number of football fixtures and gatherings have been moved because of the violence.....
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Mr.Bishie said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20524115
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That abstention is a tiny chink of light around a previously firmly closed door. If the Palestinians got this observer status it would be more than symbolic. It would mean that Palestine is recognised as a state. This is something the Israelis really don't want.

Stage 2 would be the recognition by the British government of the validity of the election of Hamas as governors of Palestine. The Israelis would be spitting blood at this though. They have been in denial* since that election.

*no pun intended
 
I don't really understand the nuances of this.

At the moment they have "permanent observer" status.
They are going for a "non-member observer state".
?
 
Hocus Eye. said:
The key word is 'state'.
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Indeed


In order for a new state to come into existence, it must meet the so-called Montevideo criteria: a) a permanent population; b) a defined territory; c) a government; and d) capacity to enter into relations with other states.[2] The latter two criteria are generally understood to incorporate a requirement of independence. The government criterion also entails a requirement of effective control over the territory and its population.

...

If Palestine is a state, then it is entitled to all of the rights of states under international law.[20] These rights include immunities of the state and its officials, protection from the use of force by other states, the right of self-defense and collective self-defense in the event of an armed attack against it, plenary jurisdiction over its territory, the prohibition of intervention in matters essentially within its domestic jurisdiction, the possibility of membership in other intergovernmental organizations and specialized agencies, and full treaty-making capacity.

Statehood could also provide access to international courts and other dispute settlement mechanisms. While it cannot be a party to the Statute of the International Court of Justice (“ICJ”) without Security Council approval, it may be able to access the ICJ under Article 35(2) of its Statute and pursuant to Security Council Resolution 9 (1946), which allows states not parties to the ICJ Statute to file a declaration accepting the Court’s jurisdiction.

A collective determination of statehood could also have more immediate legal implications. During the Israel–Gaza armed conflict in late 2008 and early 2009, the Palestinian National Authority lodged a declaration with the Registrar of the International Criminal Court (“ICC”) stating that it recognizes “the jurisdiction of the Court for the purpose of identifying, prosecuting and judging the authors and accomplices of acts committed on the territory of Palestine ....” If Palestine is a State, it can enable the ICC to exercise jurisdiction over crimes committed on its territory, even if those crimes have been committed by nationals of states that are not States Parties to the Rome Statute.
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http://www.asil.org/pdfs/insights/insight110913.pdf


I know this seems to be dismissed, but it could surely be quite important.
 
The US and Israel oppose the move, citing concerns that the Palestinians are trying to seek full statehood via the UN, rather than through negotiation as set out in the 1993 Oslo peace accords under which the Palestinian Authority was established.
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I can't see why they should not...
 
weltweit said:
I can't see why they should not...
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You and I and many others think that the Palestinians should not be prevented from becoming a state. Israel and its friends the USA and the British government think otherwise. If Palestine is recognised by the world as a state then they would be entitled to have an army and weapons to defend themselves. Israel has been operating a naval blockade over the coast of Gaza for a long time mostly to prevent the importation of weapons. The Palestinians in Gaza would be entitled to such weapons if Palestine was a recognised state. This would alter the balance of power in the Middle East weakening Israel - America's watch dog-in relative terms.
 
Hocus Eye. said:
You and I and many others think that the Palestinians should not be prevented from becoming a state. Israel and its friends the USA and the British government think otherwise. If Palestine is recognised by the world as a state then they would be entitled to have an army and weapons to defend themselves. Israel has been operating a naval blockade over the coast of Gaza for a long time mostly to prevent the importation of weapons. The Palestinians in Gaza would be entitled to such weapons if Palestine was a recognised state. This would alter the balance of power in the Middle East weakening Israel - America's watch dog-in relative terms.
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Sorry but this is entirely fictional. UN recognition gives it nothing.It is purely symbolic Certainly not the right to a military. All UN recognition gives it is the right to wave pretty flags and issue postage stamps. This has absolutely no relation to reality. Reality is the West Bank is occupied by Israel and that occupation is administered, at least in part, by the PA which operates as Israel's policeman. The reality is there are 500.000 settlers in the West Bank and that number is increasing relentlessly. UN recognition would change none of this.

All UN recognition will do is boost Abbas dire support amongst Palestinians for a short time. This is the PAs whole purpose in seeking it. It offers nothing to Palestinians, nothing and you are kidding yourself if you believe the world will lift a finger to protect the sovereignty of this fictional state.
 
dylans said:
Sorry but this is entirely fictional. UN recognition gives it nothing.It is purely symbolic Certainly not the right to a military. All UN recognition gives it is the right to wave pretty flags and issue postage stamps. This has absolutely no relation to reality. Reality is the West Bank is occupied by Israel and that occupation is administered, at least in part, by the PA which operates as Israel's policeman. The reality is there are 500.000 settlers in the West Bank and that number is increasing relentlessly. UN recognition would change none of this.

All UN recognition will do is boost Abbas dire support amongst Palestinians for a short time. This is the PAs whole purpose in seeking it. It offers nothing to Palestinians, nothing and you are kidding yourself if the world will lift a finger to protect the sovereignty of this fictional state.
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Ok, you normally seem to be on the ball with this stuff so I will concede that. I have been checking and it seems that membership of the UN is for 'peace loving states'. On that basis the US and Britain should be excluded.
 
According to an analyst at the Beeb News the concerns of Israel and their supporters are that if Palestine gets recognised as a state by the UN it will enable them to use the UN to bring charges against Israel for war crimes. That would be very interesting.
 
Hocus Eye. said:
According to an analyst at the Beeb News the concerns of Israel and their supporters are that if Palestine gets recognised as a state by the UN it will enable them to use the UN to bring charges against Israel for war crimes. That would be very interesting.
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I don't understand the logic of this argument either. The West Bank is under military occupation. It's status in international humanitarian law is very clear. It is "illegally occupied territory" as is all land taken in 67. Israel then, as the occupying power, has obligations under international law right now, obligations that it disregards. It is legally obliged to withdraw and it is legally responsible for the welfare of the people under its control.

These obligations are in no way in question or a matter of debate and neither is the illegality of the occupation. The occupation is illegal and its illegality has been upheld by every single legal institution in the world. Israel's breaches of its obligations under international law then already constitute war crimes and this is the case regardless of any UN recognition of statehood.

The obstacle preventing Palestinians taking Israel to court for crimes against international humanitarian law have nothing to do with whether the occupied territories are granted statehood or not. They have to do with US control over the UN security council and its use of veto protect Israel, the support for Israel by Western powers and most of all by the fact that international law and its enforcement is the prerogative of Western nations who choose to allow Israel to enjoy impunity

The idea that this situation is magically going to change and Israel will be suddenly accountable for its crimes because of some General Assembly vote is frankly absurd
 
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