Operation pillar of cloud. Israeli assault on Gaza
- Thread starter dylans
- Start date
Fez909
toilet expert
Germany abstained
Ax^
Silly Rabbit
Agreed with smudge it shows how fuck the american system is a state free from religion my arse,
Israel only exist as a state due to funding of the ring wing christians in america.. (The bible is the word of god fuckrags)
And nothings going to change that situation and improve things for the Palestinians..
Israel only exist as a state due to funding of the ring wing christians in america.. (The bible is the word of god fuckrags)
And nothings going to change that situation and improve things for the Palestinians..
Ax^
Silly Rabbit
Aye but you supplied them with nukes..
Sorry tom you are a member of the ring wing fuck nuts I'm talking about
Israel would have gotten nukes no matter what. Even if they hadn't, it isn't nukes that have allowed Israel to survive. And if you think I'm right wing, you are extremely mistaken.Aye but you supplied them with nukes..
Sorry tom you are a member of the ring wing fuck nuts I'm talking about
Ax^
Silly Rabbit
If you don't think being the sole nuclear power in the middle east is important to Israel survival, yopu might want to look at your current and historical involvement and interaction with iran.
I call you right wing as you only get involved in Islamic and Israel foreign policy threads.
If I've misinterpreted you input my mistake.
I think you have misinterpreted. You are a Brit I assume but I don't think you automatically support everything the UK gov does. Same goes with me. I get involved in Islamic & Israel threads as well as others. I usually don't get involved in Brit threads because I'm not a Brit.If you don't think being the sole nuclear power in the middle east is important to Israel survival, yopu might want to look at your current and historical involvement and interaction with iran.
I call you right wing as you only get involved in Islamic and Israel foreign policy threads.
If I've misinterpreted you input my mistake.
As I said before I think this UN vote is a great victory for the Palestinians. It helps move toward a 2 state solution which I think is the only possible one (as do Finkelstein & Chomsky & they are hardly right wing).
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Not just right wing Christians. Obama supports Israel unconditionally too as the recent Gaza massacre shows.Support for Israel is bipartisan in the US. In fact I don't know how anyone could now seriously claim Obama is in any way better than Romney would have been. Republicans and Democrats are absolutely identical on Israel.
The US supports Israel because of the convergence of two factors. The Israeli lobby which has a powerful voice in Washington and US geo strategic reasons which sees Israel as serving the wider interests of Empire in the region.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
As I said before I think this UN vote is a great victory for the Palestinians. .
Your deluding yourself my friend. This UN vote means nothing. All it does it throw Abbas a lifeline. The UN has recognised the illegality of the occupation and the legitimacy of Palestinian national self determination for half a century, it hasn't stopped a single settlement, a single house demolition or a single checkpoint. This vote will be no different. Israel is ALREADY in violation of international law. It ignores it. Israel is ALREADY in breach of over 70 UN resolutions. It ignores them. And US support allows it to act with impunity.
Chomsky thinks a one state (or even a no state) solution is preferable but supports a two state solution as it is supported by almost every country at the UN and has majority support in many countries including the US. He thinks the two state solution is flawed but achievable and would continue to campaign for one state were it implemented.I think you have misinterpreted. You are a Brit I assume but I don't think you automatically support everything the UK gov does. Same goes with me. I get involved in Islamic & Israel threads as well as others. I usually don't get involved in Brit threads because I'm not a Brit.
As I said before I think this UN vote is a great victory for the Palestinians. It helps move toward a 2 state solution which I think is the only possible one (as do Finkelstein & Chomsky & they are hardly right wing).
I think the phrase you are looking for is 'honest broker'.
Chomsky thinks the one state solution is a fantasy & so do I BTW. He says it's nice to talk about one state but it's academic, it'll never happen. And even if you want one state it has to start with 2 states.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Recent years, particularly following the Arab uprisings in the region, have seen an upsurge in Palestinian activism in the occupied territories. During operation cast lead, the West Bank was virtually silent. The PA had it totally locked down and under control. However during the recent pillar of cloud operations the West Bank erupted and the PA security forces lost control.
This is what the PA fears the most, a rise in popular grassroots activism that it can't control and which may threaten the regime itself. The PA then needs to shift public anger into a realm it can control and to divert popular struggle into an institutional, diplomatic and legislative struggle and this is the context of the UN bid. In fact it is the context of the PAs entire international strategy, something given added urgency as the PA watches the rise of popular resistance and the rising reputation of Hamas.
The US gave the PA its role as Israel's collaborator. It put Abbas into power and it pays the bills. During the Bush years, they specifically isolated Arafat following the Israeli siege of his compound and promoted Abbas in his place. Following Arafat's death, Abbas and his gang moved quickly to consolidate their hold over the security services (something they had been denied by Arafat) Since then it has loyally policed the occupation and served to pacify the population for the US and Israel.
The PA then feels betrayed by the US, its paymasters. It feels like it has done Israel and the US' dirty work and has received nothing in return and it is hemorrhaging its legitimacy and public support as a result. It is locked into a peace process and negotiation process with no end goal and which is just a barely concealed cover for further Israeli settlements. Frustrated and desperate and seeing their legitimacy evaporate in the face of an upsurge in the popular resistance struggle (and a rise of Hamas) they are turning to the UN to force the US and Israel's hand. They hope the UN vote will grant them more legitimacy in the eyes of their people and strengthen their hand in future negotiations.
Why then, should those of us who support the popular resistance struggle in Palestine, support a strategy deliberately aimed at isolated that struggle and diverting it into another round of worthless legalistic measures. The PA put forward the idea that this UN vote will somehow make it easier to hold Israel to account in front of world opinion and international law. But the UN vote decides nothing new. The UN has long recognised that the occupation is illegal. This opinion has been echoed by over 70 UN resolutions, all of which have been ignored by Israel and 41 security council resolutions, all of which have been vetoed by the US.
The idea that the Palestinians have previously been denied the legal tools to challenge Israel is nonsense. The Illegality of Israel's actions has been recognised by many institutions already on many occasions. Not only the UN but the International Court of Justice which ruled Israel's security wall to be illegal. Israel ignored it. The international conference of the fourth Geneva convention which ruled that the transfer of prisoners out of the occupied territories was illegal, Israel ignored it.The International Commission of Jurists, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the list goes on. All have declared the occupation to be illegal. Israel has ignored them all. The problem is not Palestinian access to those legal tools. The problem is Israel's impunity before them and their rulings. We had a stark example of this in the UK recently when the principle of universal jurisdiction was invoked to indict Israeli leaders visiting the UK. The response of the British government was to change the law to protect Israel.
The idea that this will change and Israel will somehow become more accountable because Palestine is now a UN member state is illusory.
So, when we balance these things. The motives of the PA, the damage this move is intended to cause to the popular struggle, the strengthened hold it will give the PA over the occupied territories, the continued impunity of Israel before international legal rulings. Then the only conclusion is that it will cause more damage than good.
There is no alternative to real struggle. Popular grassroots resistance amongst ordinary Palestinians and solidarity for their struggle from the Arab world and the world in general and no amount of legalistic bargaining and institutional recognition is going to change that. If legal and diplomatic measures were sought as part of a strategy of ongoing popular resistance then yes, they may have some value but this is not the case. The opposite is true. The authority following this strategy is actively crushing all resistance in its territory. These measures are being put forward as a substitute for popular struggle and as a method of undermining them. The PA is not part of teh solution. It is part of the problem and an obstacle to be overcome by those who genuinely seek the realisation of Palestinian national rights. As such I will not be celebrating this morning
This is what the PA fears the most, a rise in popular grassroots activism that it can't control and which may threaten the regime itself. The PA then needs to shift public anger into a realm it can control and to divert popular struggle into an institutional, diplomatic and legislative struggle and this is the context of the UN bid. In fact it is the context of the PAs entire international strategy, something given added urgency as the PA watches the rise of popular resistance and the rising reputation of Hamas.
The US gave the PA its role as Israel's collaborator. It put Abbas into power and it pays the bills. During the Bush years, they specifically isolated Arafat following the Israeli siege of his compound and promoted Abbas in his place. Following Arafat's death, Abbas and his gang moved quickly to consolidate their hold over the security services (something they had been denied by Arafat) Since then it has loyally policed the occupation and served to pacify the population for the US and Israel.
The PA then feels betrayed by the US, its paymasters. It feels like it has done Israel and the US' dirty work and has received nothing in return and it is hemorrhaging its legitimacy and public support as a result. It is locked into a peace process and negotiation process with no end goal and which is just a barely concealed cover for further Israeli settlements. Frustrated and desperate and seeing their legitimacy evaporate in the face of an upsurge in the popular resistance struggle (and a rise of Hamas) they are turning to the UN to force the US and Israel's hand. They hope the UN vote will grant them more legitimacy in the eyes of their people and strengthen their hand in future negotiations.
Why then, should those of us who support the popular resistance struggle in Palestine, support a strategy deliberately aimed at isolated that struggle and diverting it into another round of worthless legalistic measures. The PA put forward the idea that this UN vote will somehow make it easier to hold Israel to account in front of world opinion and international law. But the UN vote decides nothing new. The UN has long recognised that the occupation is illegal. This opinion has been echoed by over 70 UN resolutions, all of which have been ignored by Israel and 41 security council resolutions, all of which have been vetoed by the US.
The idea that the Palestinians have previously been denied the legal tools to challenge Israel is nonsense. The Illegality of Israel's actions has been recognised by many institutions already on many occasions. Not only the UN but the International Court of Justice which ruled Israel's security wall to be illegal. Israel ignored it. The international conference of the fourth Geneva convention which ruled that the transfer of prisoners out of the occupied territories was illegal, Israel ignored it.The International Commission of Jurists, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the list goes on. All have declared the occupation to be illegal. Israel has ignored them all. The problem is not Palestinian access to those legal tools. The problem is Israel's impunity before them and their rulings. We had a stark example of this in the UK recently when the principle of universal jurisdiction was invoked to indict Israeli leaders visiting the UK. The response of the British government was to change the law to protect Israel.
The idea that this will change and Israel will somehow become more accountable because Palestine is now a UN member state is illusory.
So, when we balance these things. The motives of the PA, the damage this move is intended to cause to the popular struggle, the strengthened hold it will give the PA over the occupied territories, the continued impunity of Israel before international legal rulings. Then the only conclusion is that it will cause more damage than good.
There is no alternative to real struggle. Popular grassroots resistance amongst ordinary Palestinians and solidarity for their struggle from the Arab world and the world in general and no amount of legalistic bargaining and institutional recognition is going to change that. If legal and diplomatic measures were sought as part of a strategy of ongoing popular resistance then yes, they may have some value but this is not the case. The opposite is true. The authority following this strategy is actively crushing all resistance in its territory. These measures are being put forward as a substitute for popular struggle and as a method of undermining them. The PA is not part of teh solution. It is part of the problem and an obstacle to be overcome by those who genuinely seek the realisation of Palestinian national rights. As such I will not be celebrating this morning
Nylock
I hate 'these days'...
Sadly, that's pretty much what Netanyahu said after the result as well: "This result is meaningless"
So we can pretty much see what road we're going to be going down over the coming years. The same one we've always gone down. It totally sucks arse (massive understatement or what?) for the Palestinian people and there's not a damn thing they or anyone else can do about it...
dylans
overlord of all acorns
He will ensure that it is and so will the US. Legal and diplomatic measures won't end the occupation. Mass based popular resistance will. The very thing Abbas is sworn to stop.Palestinians need to launch a third intifada, and call on the Arab world for solidarity. The first target of that intifada should be the overthrow of their own collaborator regime.Sadly, that's pretty much what Netanyahu said after the result as well: "This result is meaningless"
dylans
overlord of all acorns
There is something they can do. They can launch a new grassroots mass campaign of resistance. There are already signs that this is happening. The West Bank recently erupted over the Gaza attacks. Something that was entirely missing from the last attack on Gaza. Palestinians recently won major concessions on the prisoner front over the hunger strikes and most importantly, the single best weapon they have is the fact that the Arab world is currently engulfed in revolutions. They need to tap into this and launch their own "Palestinian spring." When they do, all this crap, all this legalistic and diplomatic crap will be seen for the worthless posturing that it is and finally ordinary Palestinians will be narrating the direction of their own struggle.
There is no alternative to mass based grassroots resistance.
I've never read him say that it'll never happen just that it requires two states first. He may say its a fantasy to go from the current situation to one state. Though from what I've read and heard he very much thinks one state is a long term prospect.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
http://dylans12.wordpress.com/politics-and-such/dylans, you should so have a blog
Nylock
I hate 'these days'...
Although i agree with what you say, i can't help thinking that that without the US either backing a proper dialogue between both sides that results in the 1967 border solution, or the Israeli government themselves deciding they've had enough and entering meaningful dialogue with the Palestinian people which ends up in a truly equal solution that both parties are happy with, then i will remain somewhat pessimistic about the long-term future for both sides.
Too much is currently stacked against them (especially the Palestinians) for any progress to be made. Having the Samson Doctrine as Israel's ultimate trump card is always going to give them licence to do what the fuck they want with impunity. And if a popular uprising was to kick off (even with support of regional players) the Israeli authorities will just crack down as hard as they like and with the ever present shadow of Samson, they will just get away with it as they have always done. It's a shite state of affairs
Israel hurts US interests (empire etc) in every way. It's the domestic support for Israel in the US that is the main factor.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
That's just nonsense Tom. Israel is both central and essential to US strategy in the Middle East.
Similar threads
