Operation pillar of cloud. Israeli assault on Gaza

[likesfish]

The ony effective way to get at hezzbollah would have been the old fashioned way with infantry lots of casualities either way
Not really an idf thing.

 

[uk benzo]

As part of the diaspora living a relatively comfortable life in the UK, I am in no position to speak on behalf of those suffering on a daily basis in Palestine. But I can say that the overall consensus amongst us is that we will only be able to do something once the oil in the ME runs out and therefore outside interference in our politics and the politics in neighbouring countries will end. In the meantime, we feel like we are the sourge of the earth. Americans and Europeans treat us like de facto terrorists. Neighbouring Arab countries like vermin. Hence the helpless feeling.

 

[DotCommunist]

In Lebanon during the 2006 Lebanon war. Hezbollah gave them a bloody nose.

Hezbollah tweaked their testes when they went into South Lebanon with armour. They had their Katushyas dug into caves and revetments, which made it muy difficult for the IAF to neutralise. Cometh the hour, the IDF were made to look very ineffective.

cheers fellas-so the verdict on past performance says not great in a fair fight?

 

[uk benzo]

re: Lebanon, the IDF's problem is that they have had the luxury of having had soft targets for the last 20 years, i.e., an unarmed Palestinian population. The new generation of IDF have never really had to fight, just pick targets from their turrets. As a consequence, when up against a well-armed, well-trained militia that have ideological ferocity whilst in parallel believing their own hype about being 'one of the most capable armies in the world... blah blah blah', they literally don't know what to do.

 

[ViolentPanda]

cheers fellas-so the verdict on past performance says not great in a fair fight?

As someone said earlier, they rely on force multipliers, blitzkrieg and superior training. One-on-one with an equally-equipped and trained enemy, they'd probably be stymied (not least because they're not used to "fair fights"). People tend to forget that one of the reasons they won their "proper" wars is because they were fighting against poorly-trained soldiers from dictatorships (dictators like to keep their soldiers only passably able, except for the inevitable Presidential Guard), who weren't trained to hold the line against air and armoured assaults.

 

[ViolentPanda]

re: Lebanon, the IDF's problem is that they have had the luxury of having had soft targets for the last 20 years, i.e., an unarmed Palestinian population. The new generation of IDF have never really had to fight, just pick targets from their turrets. As a consequence, when up against a well-armed, well-trained militia that have ideological ferocity whilst in parallel believing their own hype about being 'one of the most capable armies in the world... blah blah blah', they literally don't know what to do.

Much as the US have experienced, and with the concomitant aversion to casualties, especially POWs (which play very badly to the folks at home).

 

[DotCommunist]

As part of the diaspora living a relatively comfortable life in the UK, I am in no position to speak on behalf of those suffering on a daily basis in Palestine. But I can say that the overall consensus amongst us is that we will only be able to do something once the oil in the ME runs out and therefore outside interference in our politics and the politics in neighbouring countries will end. In the meantime, we feel like we are the sourge of the earth. Americans and Europeans treat us like de facto terrorists. Neighbouring Arab countries like vermin. Hence the helpless feeling.

Every time a chink in the Armour is exploited- no matter which group claims it or did it,our governments ramp up security and pass laws. It's like a fucking feedback loop. It's exactly the reaction desired by guerrilla forces. Make the enemy an armed camp.

And states with orthodox military pursue the same again and again- air strikes, clampdowns, checkpoints.Ever failing to realise this shit just fuels resistance

 

[TitanSound]

Much as the US have experienced, and with the concomitant aversion to casualties, especially POWs (which play very badly to the folks at home).

I forget the name of the city in Iraq, but I remember the US saying to everyone "Get the fuck out because we're going to level the place". Instead of having their ground forces massacred, they laser guided bombed the fuck out of the place and went through with heavy tanks and APC's.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I forget the name of the city in Iraq, but I remember the US saying to everyone "Get the fuck out because we're going to level the place". Instead of having their ground forces massacred, they laser guided bombed the fuck out of the place and went through with heavy tanks and APC's.

Fallujah.

 

[TitanSound]

Fallujah.

That's the one, cheers.

 

[frogwoman]

i knew it was too good to be true - just had this email from my denomination's head office
I know for a fact though this line is not the same line as a lot of its rabbis are taking and they are now linking to websites of rabbis for human rights and the like (which is, while not "anti zionist" a pretty anti israeli gov't organisation) on their website

the fact that they feel its necessary to say "we will disagree with actions of the israeli government" says a lot as well, read between lines innit

​

We are sure that all our members have been watching with grave concern the stepped-up rocket attacks from Gaza on southern Israel. Residents in Israel's south have lived under the constant threat of rocket attacks for far too long and Israel has finally responded with a measured military operation against Hamas and other terrorist groups firing these rockets and mortars at Israeli civilians.

​

BICOM has issued a helpful update on events which can be found here.​

​

The Movement for Reform Judaism deplores all violence and continues to support a two state solution. However, we also wish to emphasise our unequivocal support for Israel and its absolute right to defend itself in the face of these unprovoked attacks on its civilians.​

We will actively debate and lobby for equal rights for all citizens in Israel and will openly disagree with decisions and actions of the Israeli Government which fall short of these principles. However, when it comes to threats to Israel's survival from military or terrorist actions or campaigns to de-legitimise the State, our support is unconditional and we will be informing Israel's Ambassador, Daniel Taub, that this is the case.​

​

​

Here are two resources from the Embassy of Israel which can be used as a basis for communications in support of Israel's right to defend itself.​

Israel Under Fire​

​

Operation Pillar of Defense - Behind the Headlines​

​

 

[DotCommunist]

Fallujah this is the future of asymmetric warfare. We'll just kill a city without nukes. And then you might like us.Hey theres a leftover sarnie from this MRE- have this.No I don't know where your parents are. Take this card and go to the refuge station Have a nice day now!

 

[DotCommunist]

Israel has finally responded with a measured military operation against Hamas and other terrorist groups firing these rockets and mortars at Israeli civilians.

wow

 

[frogwoman]

wow

I know

 

[ViolentPanda]

i knew it was too good to be true - just had this email from my denomination's head office
I know for a fact though this line is not the same line as a lot of its rabbis are taking and they are now linking to websites of rabbis for human rights and the like (which is, while not "anti zionist" a pretty anti israeli gov't organisation) on their website

the fact that they feel its necessary to say "we will disagree with actions of the israeli government" says a lot as well, read between lines innit

​

​

Any time you (or rather, the head of the Reform movement) offer "unequivocal support", you basically say "whatever they do, however many they liquidate, we'll still support them".
Which is, in this case, merely a pusilanimous way of saying "fuck the Palestinians, they're dirty sand-niggers occupying historic Jewish territory. Kill 'em all!".

 

[frogwoman]

I suspect that this will not be the line that is preached in practice at least all the time given that many of the synagogues do a lot of interfaith work with local mosques and the like. The fact that they've added a line about disagreeing with decisions by israel says a lot imo don't remember that during cast lead (not initially anyway)

 

[albionism]

Israel has finally responded with a measured military operation against Hamas and other terrorist groups firing these rockets and mortars at Israeli civilians.

Who on earth said this?

 

[TitanSound]

If Israel's response is measured then I'm Ron Jeremy's massive wang.

 

[two sheds]

these unprovoked attacks

is chilling, too.

 

[frogwoman]

Who on earth said this?

Who on earth said this?

It's in an email i just received from the movement for reform judaism

reckon they're just saying it to convince their own members as much as anything

 

[albionism]

oh dear oh dear

 

[frogwoman]

indeed x100000000000000

 

[Fez909]

There was a woman on Russia Today being interview last night who said the reason for these strikes and possible invasion is really down to Syria. The war there has been spilling out towards Israel and there was a small exchange of fire across the border last week, but the Israelis don't want to get involved. But as the PM might be seen as weak, he has to do something...and that something is the easy option of attacking Gaza.

Seems plausible.

 

[DotCommunist]

next time you go synagouge you are going to have take a picture of picard facepalming with you and pin it to your chest

 

[frogwoman]

did write to them during cast lead when they came out with a similar load of zionist shit and they actually altered the statement on their website so it was more critical of israel (i suspect mine was not the only email they got along those lines) with any luck people might do the same this time. i hope so

 

[kebabking]

cheers fellas-so the verdict on past performance says not great in a fair fight?

difficult to know, because they aren't stupid enought to get involved in a 'fair fight'. a 'fair fight' is a conflict in which two broadly even (force, training, leadership, equipment, support etc..) combatants slug it out, usually into the 12th round with blood everywhere and no decisive winner - the loser is he who both fucks up first, and he who can't recover from fucking up.

personally, while i accept VP's points completely about the IDF being a bit flabby and a bit lazy because their opponants have been badly equipped, badly trained, and badly lead, and that if you put them up against a NATO standard formation of equal size/training/equipment they'd have a right handful, i think it would be foolish to pretend that they aren't a) light years ahead of anyone else in the region, and b) that once they shook themselves down, they wouldn't be the equal and better of any NATO armoured formation bar the US, and possibly the UK and Germany.

basing their conventional warfare capabilities on their COIN performance would be foolish - as foolish as basing the UK's coventional warfighting capability on our performance in NI, as some people in Argentina found their cost...

 

[frogwoman]

next time you go synagouge you are going to have take a picture of picard facepalming with you and pin it to your chest

aye, as i said tho, i was pleasantly surprised by a photo of the gaza strip in their exhibition thingy last time i went, this is from the head of the reform movement in britain, they know that most people don't take this line so i dont know why they send these types of emails every time something like this happens

facio palmium! again

 

[nino_savatte]

Here's a Steve Bell cartoon

Brendan O'Neill and Damian Thompson are complaining about this cartoon and referring to him as "anti-Semitic".
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/d...l-is-a-nazi-says-times-columnist-giles-coren/
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/b...still-running-the-world-implies-the-guardian/

Point well and truly missed for the sake of a cheap smear.

 

[DotCommunist]

difficult to know, because they aren't stupid enought to get involved in a 'fair fight'. a 'fair fight' is a conflict in which two broadly even (force, training, leadership, equipment, support etc..) combatants slug it out, usually into the 12th round with blood everywhere and no decisive winner - the loser is he who both fucks up first, and he who can't recover from fucking up.

personally, while i accept VP's points completely about the IDF being a bit flabby and a bit lazy because their opponants have been badly equipped, badly trained, and badly lead, and that if you put them up against a NATO standard formation of equal size/training/equipment they'd have a right handful, i think it would be foolish to pretend that they aren't a) light years ahead of anyone else in the region, and b) that once they shook themselves down, they wouldn't be the equal and better of any NATO armoured formation bar the US, and possibly the UK and Germany.

basing their conventional warfare capabilities on their COIN performance would be foolish - as foolish as basing the UK's coventional warfighting capability on our performance in NI, as some people in Argentina found their cost...

and of course holding the nuclear ace although deploying that in situ would be mental you can't discount the reaction of some state that feels cornered.


I'm no military mind, I played a game of medal of honour once, but how much value do the reservists have really? Surely drafts from a mandatory service x amount of years ago are likely to be shit outs who want to go home, right now

 

[frogwoman]

actually I do have an idea why they do it

still doesn't make it better tho