Operation pillar of cloud. Israeli assault on Gaza

[ska invita]

Yes, they're on the back foot just now because of the savile stuff and its fall-out.

it doesnt make sense though - back foot to who exactly? (not picking you up )

 

[DexterTCN]

I joined about 30 years ago. Hope that helps

Well...it seems to be making things worse, to be honest.

 

[dylans]

Demonstration in Tel Aviv.

As you can imagine they are having a hard time of it.

Some 200 protesters rallied in central Tel Aviv on Thursday night, calling for a cease-fire in Gaza. The activists, largely identifying with left-wing political parties Meretz and Hadash, chanted slogan such as "Arabs and Jews refuse to be enemies," "in Gaza and Sderot, little girls want to live," and "Bibi and Barak, war is not a game."
Across the street, dozens of right-wing activists, including MK Michael Ben Ari, from the National Union party, engaged in a counter protest, chanting "everyone knows left-wingers are traitors," and "let the IDF in, let the IDF win."
In central Jerusalem, police arrested five people participating in a protest against Israeli activity in Gaza. The other 100 or so protesters dispersed, following the arrests.

 

[peterkro]

I joined about 30 years ago. Hope that helps

Yes with the north east Ireland chapter I believe we're about go global.

 

[DexterTCN]

it doesnt make sense though - back foot to who exactly? (not picking you up )

Well tbh nothing is going to change their reporting on this issue. However they are definitely open to attack just now, they are reeling from the recent savile/newsnight/dg payoff events. More anger than thought when I posted, the weakness is there but not on this issue.

 

[elbows]

Its been a number of years since the BBCs coverage of Israel, Gaza etc took a turn for the worst, I seem to remember getting rather wound up about it last time around. Prior to that it wasnt exactly perfect, but something shifted that made it worse.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Demonstration in Tel Aviv.

As you can imagine they are having a hard time of it.

Do you have a link for this, would like to share.

 

[dylans]

Its been a number of years since the BBCs coverage of Israel, Gaza etc took a turn for the worst, I seem to remember getting rather wound up about it last time around. Prior to that it wasnt exactly perfect, but something shifted that made it worse.

Their panorama episode on the flotilla killings was a particularly awful piece of pro Israeli propaganda as I recall.

 

[dylans]

Do you have a link for this, would like to share.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/nationa...o-urge-end-to-gaza-operation.premium-1.478187

 

[dylans]

Al Qassam have posted this video of the drone they claim to have shot down.

Israel are denying it and claiming its a home made prop.

However, Electronic Intifada have posted the following brochure picture of the "skylite B drone made by the Israeli firm Rafael which is identical to the drone in the video. It seems its the IDF who are lying not Al Qassam

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs...denial-palestinians-shot-down-drone-over-gaza

 

[DexterTCN]

I've just thought. A BBC reporter's baby was killed in one of the Israeli attacks wasn't he?

Surely that would be front page/leading item news with any news org in the world if a reporter's baby was killed in direct action? bbc homepage...fuck all

 

[weltweit]

Yes, I heard about the reporters baby. That should be UK news.

 

[CNT36]

Question time talk about a diversity of identical opinions.

 

[elbows]

Not wishing to defend the BBC but just to clarify a couple of points on that one.

He wasnt a reporter, he was a picture editor for BBC Arabic.

They did mention it and post a video about it, but I agree it was not given prominence.

Video: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20340810

It was also mentioned, and the video embedded, some way through this article which I believe had prominence on the BBC website for a while:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-20336811

 

[dylans]

This is interesting. It seems the assassination of Ahmed Jaabari has conveniently scuppered a move towards a long term ceasefire

Yesterday morning, hours before Israel assassinated Ahmed Jaabari, my counterpart in Hamas presented the draft (proposal for a long term ceasefire arrangement) to Jaabari and to other Hamas leaders. Senior Hamas leaders on the outside had already seen it and had instructed him to check the reactions to it in Gaza. I was supposed to receive the draft yesterday evening to present to Israeli officials who were waiting for me to send it to them.

That option is now off the table. Jaabari is dead and so is the chance for a mutually beneficial long term ceasefire understanding. Why did Benjamin Netanyahu do it? The cynical answer already offered by Aluf Benn in Haaretz is elections consideration. Cast Lead was also conducted before elections. Hitting Jaabari, according to Netanyahu’s thinking, would help him in the upcoming Israeli elections. Perhaps this is true, perhaps not.

It seems to me that some of the commanders of the Israeli army have been very frustrated that the previous agreements to return to calm left Israel in a weaker position, with Hamas calling the shots. They have been calling to rebuild Israel’s deterrence. Let them in Gaza feel the pain of a serious Israeli attack and then they will think seven times before shooting more rockets, is what they proposed. In the last days there has been a lot of talk from politicians, military experts and officers to return to the policy of “targeted killings.” This, they claim, would make the Hamas leaders hide for their lives and stop shooting at us.These military geniuses failed to realize that what never worked in the past will not work now either.


The assassination of Jaabari was a pre-emptive strike against the possibility of a long term ceasefire. Netanyahu has acted with extreme irresponsibility. He has endangered the people of Israel and struck a real blow against the few important more pragmatic elements within Hamas.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/15/assassinating-the-chance-for-calm.html

 

[weepiper]

Interesting background on the upcoming election and why Netanyahu might be wishing to stir things up

http://www.timesofisrael.com/netany...srael-beytenu-promises-to-lead-with-strength/

 

[teqniq]

I've just thought. A BBC reporter's baby was killed in one of the Israeli attacks wasn't he?

Surely that would be front page/leading item news with any news org in the world if a reporter's baby was killed in direct action? bbc homepage...fuck all

I can't find it right now but someone tweeted earlier that when interviewing the guy who lost his kid the BBC said that it was 'claimed' to be an Israeli rocket or bomb that killed the child. Also lots of mainly American tweeters who are mystified as to why this story is on the front page of the Washington Post but the BBC is giving it relatively little coverage.

 

[Kippa]

Do you think that it is a possability that Israel is using the attack from the Palastinians as a way of getting the army mobalised and ready for a attack/war with Iran, as they're calling up their army reservists of 30,000.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Do you think that it is a possability that Israel is using the attack from the Palastinians as a way of getting the army mobalised and ready for a attack/war with Iran, as they're calling up their army reservists of 30,000.

probably not.

I'd guess that Netanyahu's preferred option would've been to bomb Iran directly after Romney got elected, but failing this has opted to fall back for the more traditional pre-election Gaza attack instead.

I'm more than likely totally wrong though.

 

[likesfish]

Cant see why the idf would lie about the drone its a drone. They are replacable thats sort of the point of a drone??

Daily hate is full of the dead baby desrved it for supporting hamas while the 3 israelis were competely innocent bullshit

 

[dylans]

Cant see why the idf would lie about the drone its a drone. They are replacable thats sort of the point of a drone??

Daily hate is full of the dead baby desrved it for supporting hamas while the 3 israelis were competely innocent bullshit

I'd have thought the resistance would be a bit too busy avoiding death at the moment to be spending their time manufacturing fake drones for propaganda purposes. Besides. The drone in the video is exactly the same as in the brochure. The IDF have every reason to deny Al Qassam's claims of any victories. They denied that rockets reached Tel Aviv too and we now know they did. Twice.

 

[likesfish]

I guess so its hardly a victory over grown model aircraft brought down?.

 

[dylans]

I guess so its hardly a victory over grown model aircraft brought down?.

Well quite but that just demonstrates the asymmetrical nature of this war when even something as small as downing a drone is considered a major achievement for the resistance.

The real victory for Gazans of course will simply be surviving this assault.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Israeli military halts strikes conditionally during Hesham Qandil's brief solidarity meeting with Hamas rulers.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middl...&utm_term=plustweets&utm_medium=MasterAccount

 

[Pickman's model]

I'd have thought the resistance would be a bit too busy avoiding death at the moment to be spending their time manufacturing fake drones for propaganda purposes. Besides. The drone in the video is exactly the same as in the brochure. The IDF have every reason to deny Al Qassam's claims of any victories. They denied that rockets reached Tel Aviv too and we now know they did. Twice.

I await israeli claims to have sunk the invincible several times

 

[Pickman's model]

Cant see why the idf would lie about the drone its a drone. They are replacable thats sort of the point of a drone??

Daily hate is full of the dead baby desrved it for supporting hamas while the 3 israelis were competely innocent bullshit

drones are supposed to be superhard to shoot down

 

[dylans]

If Israel is following the same strategy as cast lead then we can expect a ground assault after a week of air attacks. This is what happened last time. Cast lead had a number of strategic goals. The first was collective punishment and demoralisation of the population.(a war crime incidentally) This is accomplished by destroying infrastructure, raining down death and generally making life as miserable as possible for Gaza's population.

Another mission goal of cast lead was the degradation of the resistance command and control and political leadership. In short to kill Hamas Qassam and other resistance forces members. This, of course was the goal of the first strike in this war, the assassination of Jabari.

All of the above can be done with air, sea and artillery power however and doesn't require a ground assault. A ground assault has a more specific purpose, namely the finding and destruction of resistance weapons, namely its rocket arsenal. This was the stated goal of cast lead and will be the purpose of a new ground assault.

However, this is where things are slightly different to cast lead. This time the primary goal of a ground invasion will be the destruction of Qassam's Fajr-5 rockets. These are the rockets that Islamic Jihad threw at Tel Aviv yesterday. We don't know how many they have but its significant that only 2 days ago Netanyahu boasted that they had been destroyed. 24 hours before 2 reached close to Tel Aviv. Why does this matter? Because Far-5 rockets have longer range ( 50 km as opposed to 10km for Qassam rockets) which means the potential firing zone of their use is much wider than for other rockets. During Cast lead Israel focused on Gaza City and its environs in its search for missiles. A ground invasion this time will probably have to focus on a much wider area and therefore involve a larger number of ground troops with all the risks that that involves.

Another difference from cast lead is Egypt. During Cast Lead Mubarak aided Israel by securing the border in the North something which allowed the Israelis to use a strategically important road called the "Philadelphia route" control of which allowed them to isolate Gaza City. This time however Rafah will not be closed. At least if Morsi doesn't want to portray himself as a collaborator with Israel. This means that Israel will have to physically occupy the Rafah border, something that brings them very close to Egyptian forces with all the dangers that will bring.

Another difference is that Qassam are reputed to possess "MANPADS" Man Portable Air Defence Systems, and anti tank missiles which if true, means a more limited role for close air support and armoured support, something that (hopefully) limits Israel's close air cover and armoured protection as well as (again, hopefully) providing the resistance with the opportunity to score a spectacular hit on a tank or armoured vehicle or even a helicopter.

Of course the resistance cannot hope to hold out against a ground invasion and as the Cast Lead showed us, it will be a massacre. All they can hope for in such a scenerio is the opportunity to inflict at least some casualties on the IDF in the process and make them pay some kind of price. The more the better. IDF casualties is Israel's achilles heel. History shows that there is nothing better for sobering the Israeli public than a flow of body bags. This was the lesson Hezbollah learned on previous occasions in Lebanon. Although we must admit that, given Israel's overwhelming military advantage, this is unlikely to say the least. This remains a "war" against a largely unarmed population.

In the end, simply surviving a ground assault with their military and political/logistic capabilities still functioning is the only realistic goal for the resistance. Israel intend to decapitate Hamas in this assault. History shows that, for all their bombs and technology this is a goal Israel will fail to achieve.The resistance survived cast lead and they will survive this.

 

[ska invita]

I wonder what people make of Norman Finkelsteins new book Knowing Too Much which makes the case that:

The thesis of Knowing Too Much is simple: American Jews are distancing themselves from Israel. An ethnic identification, combined with a belief that Israel and the US shared both interests and liberal values, led to a great love-in after 1967 when American Jews fell head over heels for Israel. But as the evidence piles up it is increasingly difficult to reconcile liberal values with continued support for Israel. And, rather than the predominantly liberal values of American Jews buckling, it is support for Israel that is giving way.

What has caused the change, argues Finkelstein, is that there is now too much information out there. The myths of the past and the early academic work in support of Israel’s foundational myths (‘Exodus with footnotes’) has given way to serious scholarship, much of it by critical Israelis. Increasing numbers of American Jews no longer buy Israeli policies, however strong their primal attachment to Israel. And among younger Jews, even that is not as strong as it was. The evidence of this alienation is carefully chronicled by Finkelstein. How to explain it?

Obama is said to be not exactly pally with Netanyahu. Israel is threating to "annul Oslo Accords if Palestinians seek upgraded UN status" http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...ians-seek-upgraded-un-status.premium-1.477520

Is there any real chance of Israel becoming totally isolated politically?

 

[Pickman's model]

It's not like they're awash with friends now

 

[dylans]

I wonder what people make of Norman Finkelsteins new book Knowing Too Much which makes the case that:


Obama is said to be not exactly pally with Netanyahu. Israel is threating to "annul Oslo Accords if Palestinians seek upgraded UN status" http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...ians-seek-upgraded-un-status.premium-1.477520

Is there any real chance of Israel becoming totally isolated politically?

The Obama administration is as vociferously pro Israeli as any US regime ever was. The UK and EU are all peddling the "Israel's right to defend itself" narrative. Public opinion may be changing but support from world powers is as strong as ever. The idea that Obama is in any way critical of Israel or its colonial/settler project is patently ridiculous and Abbas' UN statehood bid is a meaningless distraction