Israel warns of Gaza 'holocaust'

[Brainaddict]

Yep, the Palestinians wanted a UN peacekeeping force, the Israelis didn't. Make of that what you will, but in my view it helps demonstrate what nonsense it is to say that both sides are suffering equal in this conflict.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950DE6D61139F93BA35752C1A9669C8B63

 

[KeyboardJockey]

As long as there is state-enforced inequality and land-grabs international troops would only be reinforcing the israelis, and would therefore become legitimate targets. The international community has to a) persuade israel to cease being an apartheid state; and b) persuade the palestinians to attempt to follow a process of reintegration based on what exists rather than what did exist.

I think to a certain extent the Palestinians and the Israelis have to deal with the situation as it is rather than as they'd like it to be. Not a one state solution though. Cant give my support for a bloodbath

Israel is not an apartheid state as Israeli Arabs have the same right to vote as Israeli Jews, Christians and Druze. The use of the word apartheid is a very dangerous thing as it brings up images of the excesses of the Republic of South Africa.

Equal legal and social rights,

Yes

a secular state,

Only if the Israelis want it after all its their country.

returning (at the very least) private land taken in the last 30 years,

Agree with the removal of the settlements on the WB.

the removal of the wall, freedom of movement, etc etc.

Although the wall is wrong it has at least stopped many suicide bombs and the primary duty of a nation state is to protect its citizens.

Israel won't agree to that, and has never made any sort of pretence at treating its Palestiniant population as equals. There won't be peace until there are no Palestianians left. They can either lay down and die, or they can fight until they die.

Israel is a small frightened nation if it lets its guard down too much (looking at this in realpolitik way) then it could find itself destroyed.

Either way, the term Holocaust is correct, and deliberately chosen. Gaza is rapidly turning into Palestine's Warsaw Ghetto - and I guess the lesson from the Ghetto has been well learned

Disgusting term. Disgusting choice of words. In Warsaw it was people fighting for their very lives. The Germans were going to kill everyone anyway so therefore its a not a comparable situation.

 

[bluestreak]

It most certainly is a comparable situation. The Israelis continually take more and more Palestinian land, forcing more and more people into smaller areas and they have to accept it. they have little clean water, little electricity, their hosptials are bombed. They are the ones being forced into the sea and apologists like you tell them they have to accept it, that they're not being killed off. just like at Warsaw where plenty argued that the Germans weren't planning on killing them. Just because no final solution has yet come to light, and probably doesn't exist, doesn't mean the situations aren't comparable.

 

[Spion]

Only if the Israelis want it after all its their country.

It's not tho is it? Several million people have a live claim to it. Many still have keys to houses there.

By your morals it'd be OK for the Jews were driven out because after a few years it'd be an injsutice that could not be righted

Israel is a small frightened nation

What childlike crap you come out with

Disgusting term. Disgusting choice of words. In Warsaw it was people fighting for their very lives. The Germans were going to kill everyone anyway so therefore its a not a comparable situation.

Be worked to death and/or gassed or be imprisoned until you starve and/or lose hope and move. I see little of comfort in either result.

The Gazans are in large part those Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed from the southern villages and nearby towns. Ashkelon, for eg, used to be called Majdal - it's Arab population was forcibly transferred to Gaza in 1948

 

[KeyboardJockey]

It's not tho is it? Several million people have a live claim to it. Many still have keys to houses there.

By your morals it'd be OK for the Jews were driven out because after a few years it'd be an injsutice that could not be righted

Not a comparable situation.

What childlike crap you come out with

Yawn! Its certainly a country surrounded by vicious enemies and unstable states.

The Gazans are in large part those Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed from the southern villages and nearby towns. Ashkelon, for eg, used to be called Majdal - it's Arab population was forcibly transferred to Gaza in 1948

Well they need to be compensated and Gaza (and the WB minus the settlements) needs to be rebuilt. However, I don't think this can happen while the PA is run by the nutters of Hamas.

Tell me Spion do you believe that Israel has a right to exist?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

It most certainly is a comparable situation. The Israelis continually take more and more Palestinian land, forcing more and more people into smaller areas and they have to accept it. they have little clean water, little electricity, their hosptials are bombed. They are the ones being forced into the sea and apologists like you tell them they have to accept it, that they're not being killed off. just like at Warsaw where plenty argued that the Germans weren't planning on killing them. Just because no final solution has yet come to light, and probably doesn't exist, doesn't mean the situations aren't comparable.

I've already said that the Pals need to be compensated and the settlements removed. If Israel did that I do believe that things would improve.

I don't see why the Pals should accept it but the comparison between Warsaw and Gaza isn't a genuine one. The Israelis (apart from a few nutters ) don't want to exterminate Palestinians unlike the intention of the Nazis towards the Jews.


To add: If Fatah hadn 't been so corrupt then maybe Palestinians wouldn't have voted for Hamas.

Some of the problems although not all are of the Palestinians own making similarily some of the Israeli problems are of their own making.

A plague on the nutters and extremists of both sides.

 

[Spion]

The Israelis (apart from a few nutters ) don't want to exterminate Palestinians

No, they just want to finish the process of driving them from their land and homes. Nice

 

[Spion]

Tell me Spion do you believe that Israel has a right to exist?

Should a state exist which:
* Is based on the theft of land and homes and businesses from 750,000 people
* Occupies another 1-2m people and keeps them in economic inviability, confiscating houses and land, restricting movement and business
* Systematically discriminates against a minority population in terms of movement, jobs, housing and public sector grants, land ownership

Should that state exist?

Do you believe in the right of Palestine to exist?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Should a state exist which:
* Is based on the theft of land and homes and businesses from 750,000 people
* Occupies another 1-2m people and keeps them in economic inviability, confiscating houses and land, restricting movement and business
* Systematically discriminates against a minority population in terms of movement, jobs, housing and public sector grants, land ownership

Should that state exist?

I never denied that there were injustices at the creation of the state of Israel and that the occupation of the West Bank is wrong however you have answered my question - you don't believe that Israel has a right to exist as an independent nation therefore there is really no point in debating this issue with you any more.

Do you believe in the right of Palestine to exist?

Yes but on the West Bank and Gaza initially funded by international money and its security guaranteed by an international force both to defend against Israeli incursion and to prevent a future Palestinian Govt attacking Israel.

 

[Spion]

I never denied that there were injustices at the creation of the state of Israel and that the occupation of the West Bank is wrong however you have answered my question - you don't believe that Israel has a right to exist as an independent nation therefore there is really no point in debating this issue with you any more.

That's not an answer to the question I asked:

Should a state exist which:
* Is based on the theft of land and homes and businesses from 750,000 people
* Occupies another 1-2m people and keeps them in economic inviability, confiscating houses and land, restricting movement and business
* Systematically discriminates against a minority population in terms of movement, jobs, housing and public sector grants, land ownership

Should that state exist?

What's your answer?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

That's not an answer to the question I asked:

You don't believe that Israel has a right to exist therefore we are coming from two totally antagonistic points of view so I'm not going to bandy words with you as you are unwilling to accept the existance of the state of Israel.

You are so one track minded that you are the Hamas of these boards intransigent and bigoted at least when it comes to the subject of the middle east.

What's your answer?

All countries have done wrong at some point but that doesn't mean that those nations need to be destroyed. After all Germany was rebuilt after WWII and that nation destroyed large tracts of Europe.

 

[wreckhead]

Why do people assume that Israel ceasing to exist as a state would have to involve destroying it literally?

Anyway the point is that the Israeli Deputy Defence Minister seems to be issuing the worst threats I have heard since...... oh wait Godwins law stops me here.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Why do people assume that Israel ceasing to exist as a state would have to involve destroying it literally?

Maybe because Israel is surrounded by states who want to destroy it and the people within it.

Anyway the point is that the Israeli Deputy Defence Minister seems to be issuing the worst threats I have heard since...... oh wait Godwins law stops me here.

Agree that the Dep Def Min is a fool for saying such things.

 

[Spion]

You are so one track minded that you are the Hamas of these boards intransigent and bigoted at least when it comes to the subject of the middle east.

Oh the irony

* I'm for equal rights between Arab and Jews
* I'm for compensation and/or return for the millions of Palestinians dispossesed by ethnic cleansing in a package paid for by Israel and the great powers who created and supported the situation, the UK and US
* And I'm for w/c jews' rights and property being protected

If that's bigoted I'm guilty

Meanwhile you just go la-la-la at the root causes and the present injustices

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Oh the irony

* I'm for equal rights between Arab and Jews

Agree there

* I'm for compensation and/or return for the millions of Palestinians dispossesed by ethnic cleansing in a package paid for by Israel and the great powers who created and supported the situation, the UK and US

Agree there

* And I'm for w/c jews' rights and property being protected

Agree there.

If that's bigoted I'm guilty

Meanwhile you just go la-la-la at the root causes and the present injustices

However it shouldn't mean the destruction of the state of Israel which is what a one state solution would mean.

 

[wreckhead]

Maybe because Israel is surrounded by states who want to destroy it and the people within it.


Agree that the Dep Def Min is a fool for saying such things.

I think "fool" is perhaps a slight understatement.

Also from the way this thread is going I can see why the good people of Israel and Palestine will never have peace.

 

[wreckhead]

BBC are backtracking (changed their headline):

Speaking on Israel Army Radio, Mr Vilnai said if Palestinians increased rocket fire, they will bring upon themselves what he called a "shoah" - a Hebrew word for catastrophe, and for the Nazi Holocaust.

The BBC's Katya Adler in Jerusalem says many of Mr Vilnai's colleagues have quickly distanced themselves from his comments and also tried to downplay them saying he did not mean genocide.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

BBC are backtracking (changed their headline):

Looks like sensible heads are trying to distance them selves from this idiot.

 

[Spion]

However it shouldn't mean the destruction of the state of Israel which is what a one state solution would mean.

Surely it's up to all the inhabitants to decide what the state is called as part of a process of negotiation to resolve the key injustices?

 

[wreckhead]

Looks like sensible heads are trying to distance them selves from this idiot.

I think Mr Vilnai needs to resign.

 

[Brainaddict]

the comments on the haaretz site make interesting, if depressing, reading:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/959532.html

 

[KeyboardJockey]

the comments on the haaretz site make interesting, if depressing, reading:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/959532.html

they do make depressing reading.

I think one way military action could be justified is that Hamas should be given a final chance for a ceasefire, international NGO's etc should enter Gaza to assist the civilian inhabitants and if Hamas break the ceasefire then the IDF would be justified in dealing with Hamas militarily.

FFS Hamas go for a ceasefire and Israel take the steps to accept it to see if it works.

 

[coccinelle]

Maybe because Israel is surrounded by states who want to destroy it and the people within it.

Maybe, just maybe, if Israel had not been complicit in every attempt to attack or invade or destroy by civil war an Arab state since the Suez crisis, then maybe Arab states might not still be seeing Israel as an enemy. But Israel has pursued a desire to widen and widen its borders by military means and has conspired to destroy the reputation and eventually the very fabric of every neighbouring country which it sees as any sort of equal in strength.

Maybe that is part of the reason why Israel is not liked by its neighbours.

 

[Spion]

Maybe that is part of the reason why Israel is not liked by its neighbours.

That'll be one of them.

Plus a few hundred thousand of these

 

[Lock&Light]

Maybe, just maybe, if Israel had not been complicit in every attempt to attack or invade or destroy by civil war an Arab state since the Suez crisis, then maybe Arab states might not still be seeing Israel as an enemy.

The Arab nations saw Isreal as an enemy long before the Suez crisis.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

From the Haaretz site from a Gazan:

'Hamas leading us to war with Israel. All day Hamas attack Israel and Israel shoot back. Everybody here worried, afraid to talk. This is not freedom. This is oppression. I love Gaza but I want to leave. So much violence, madness, fear and anger. This is not good. There is no future for my children. I dont want to pick up their bodies from the street. Hamas shoud go over to Israel and fight and leave us out of it. They are crazy.'





Poor fucking Gazans imprisoned by Hamas and the IDF.

 

[Spion]

Poor fucking Gazans imprisoned by Hamas and the IDF.

It's not Hamas stopping them leaving Gaza you moron

 

[KeyboardJockey]

It's not Hamas stopping them leaving Gaza you moron

They cant exactly speak out against Hamas without fear can they.

 

[bluestreak]

They cant exactly speak out against Hamas without fear can they.

But they can't leave can they? Where can they go? If they can get out of Gaza they've got nowhere to live and no welfare.

 

[Spion]

They cant exactly speak out against Hamas without fear can they.

That's it. Blame the cellmate rather than the jailer.

Anyway, 'they' elected Hamas, and to suggest there is no political debate or demonstrations within Gaza is untrue