Israel pre-emptively murder more Gaza kids

[rachamim18]

Diego: As many that regard Israel as a "terrorist state," there are two other countries who believe the opposite. When the minority becomes the majority it will become an ossue. However, fringe thinkers never really coalesce, although the world would surely be a more interesting place should they band together.

"HAMAS is a democratically elected government." WRONG. First, they are not a goivernment but a transitional entity meant to help the "Palestinians" realise their national aspirations. There is not, and never has been, a country known as "Palestine." Secondly, even if they were a democratically elected govt., they are illegal not only International Law but PA Law as well. their Charter calls for the murder of every Jew on Earth, among many other nicieties.

The Israeli Govt. on the other hand IS a democratically elected govt. of a sovereign and lawful nation. tiny bit of a difference, right?

"Normally, suicide bombings make the top of the news." Because the act is so heinous to Westerners, nothing else.


Sure, Israel is letting in journalists just to shoot them in the head. You must be brillant. how many forieng journalists enter Israel just in a given 3 month period? Do some legwork here. How many? In all of Israel;'s history, how many have been shot by Israelisoldiers? Hmmmm....Seems you do not have a leg to stand on but that's ok, it is to be expected in this forum. To top it off, how many were allowed at all into Grozny? Dafur?


"HAMAS calls for the end of the nasty Jews that make up the Israeli Govt., not decent Jews..." Um, do us both a favor and actually read the group's Charter. Again, they call for the extermination of EVERY Jew on Earth.


I misquote? OK, offer an example [and no, paraphrasing is not misquoting if the reasoning is left intact]. And of course, do not forget to bone up on that charter so you look a tad less foolish.

 

[weltweit]

Weltweit: "Weltweit has been reliably informed that all tank and artillery firing is indiscriminate." Really? By who pray tell? guarantee you ether made it up or were toyed with. Our guidance is computer assisted so scratch that one please.

I was informed this by a retired British Cavalry officer who knows what happens when you fire from tanks into civilian built up areas.

Our tanks are pretty accurate as well but in built up areas, large explosions are not discriminate.

Thus "tank and artillery firing is" in this case "indiscriminate"

Does that make sense to you?

 

[weltweit]

I'm sure everyone here would like to hear it. Fire away.

Check this thread from post 3 onwards.
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=184354

 

[moono]

rachamim;

"HAMAS calls for the end of the nasty Jews that make up the Israeli Govt., not decent Jews..." Um, do us both a favor and actually read the group's Charter. Again, they call for the extermination of EVERY Jew on Earth.

Please furnish a date for this 'charter' and a list of its signatories.

 

[trashpony]

I can't bear to read these threads now. Rachamin's defence of Israel makes me feel too nauseous. The level of brainwashing which is clearly going on in Israel is terrifying.

 

[Jonti]

It's a complex situation, but Rachamin's position is incredible. He's become an implausible and ficticious product of his own imagining. It helps, I think, to have a little understanding of the workings of cults and cultic thinking. But have you considered using the ignore function? The thread still remains must instructive, I can assure you

And there's an irony for you. Rachamin is helping u75 document the falsity of the principal claims of the zion-cult. Why is he doing that? Can he seriously hope to sway others to his way of thinking? Or is it that he has had his doubts?

And now, the steady drip of evidence fascinates him.

 

[moono]

I think that Hasbara Central allocates a stereotyped wally to every discussion site.

Unfortunately, they allotted rachamim to Urban 75.


Here, rachamim, explain to us how the IOF are blameless and the Palestinian civilians at fault.

How Israel put Gaza civilians in firing line


Military chiefs were warned that change of safety margin for gunners risked killing the innocent

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1945798,00.html

 

[Grandma Death]

Grandma Death: "Ignorant f%$^&** pig..." Your choice of words betrays your lack of not only civility, but intellectual prowess. Keep up the good fight! With people like you, the "Palestinians" will forever remain mired in hopelesssness. If only all posters were so easy to dispose of.

Its called anger-not lack of intellectual prowess. There are plenty of excellent posters in the middle east forums and for every debate they engage in with yourself you always have an answer for. Does it actually make your point of view right every time...course not, but you actually believe you are in the right-every time. Your constant refusal to even take some responsbility or criticism squarely on the chin makes me want to vomit.

I read your posts and all I see is some dangerously brainwashed baby killer who does not question the actions of his goverment but seeks to justify them no matter what. I am not the one being spoon fed propaganda like a bumbling idiot.

Clearly....it is not I lacking 'intellectual prowess'

 

[diego]

I can't bear to read these threads now. Rachamin's defence of Israel makes me feel too nauseous. The level of brainwashing which is clearly going on in Israel is terrifying.

Which is why as Jonti suggests there is no need (or point) in wasting time to try and show this idiot what really is going on in the world.

Moono you're right this "wally" must have been appointed as you suggest, but let us all unite in saying to him, Rachamin, if you would rather speak the truth and not seem like a puppet (like one of the Sky news or Fox team) then you are free to speak your mind and very welcome on these forums. But if you are ignorant to the realities of this conflict and the agendas of those behind it or indeed deliberately spew your bullshit, then you will have to be prepared to be ignored.

 

[Taxamo Welf]

"HAMAS calls for the end of the nasty Jews that make up the Israeli Govt., not decent Jews..." Um, do us both a favor and actually read the group's Charter. Again, they call for the extermination of EVERY Jew on Earth.

well it was probably not a great idea to sponsor them in the 80's then.

whoopsy!!

 

[rachamim18]

Weltweit: Apologies to your retired BRITISH calavary officer but he appears to know nothing about Israeli Urban Close Quarter Combat Armoured Tactics. Firstly, every nation has its operational cabailities and protocols. Each conflict has a seprate ROE. Even within a defined conflict every specific operation is briefed as to adjustments on these ROE.

Your supposition is that a tank, although accurate, is far too large of a shell for the job. You are, no offence, speaking from the perspective of someone who is ignorant of both the area and the conflict. Most non-apartment buildings are built in traditional MidEastern style. They have a series of houses for the extended family that form a compound with a very thich and very high permiter wall...espcially in less urbanised areas like Beit Hanoun. Tanks, like D9s, are used to infiltrate this protective outer wall in the safest and most economocal way [in every sense of the word].

That there would occasionally be collateral damage is part and parcel of any Assymetrical Op., with all the planning in the world, all the world's most advanced equipment, there astill variables in play.

For example, for the most part, locals alolow kids of all ages to run free and rampant in the streets...evenduring incursions so that they practically get under our tank, dozer, and APC treads as the play chicken. The ones with a couple of more years on them raise the steaks byu bombarding us with everything from feces to potted plants. Then of course we have the slingshot brigades. The word slingshot sounds so inncoent. One might think of Denace the Menace but these tools launch sharp stones at well over 100 mph. Let one connect, even with a helmet on, and you will know what it is to hurt.

Then there errant shots by both sides, but no matter the source the blame lays with Israel because of the propaganda war...I could go and on but I hope it is already clear.

Moono: So you have never even seen the HAMAS Charter!!!!!!!!!? Ha! I knew it. Well, all you need to do is use the search function hear because not only have I provided that same information here in at least two threads [since you have been posting], I have also highlighted all Articles in the Chrter that deal with Israel, Zionists, and Jews. If you still have a problem finding it,. and somehow I am afraid you will, let me know, I will take the time to provide all relevant information to you but tell me,will it make any differen to you? In your prasing you seem to imply that it must not have been signed by the upper echelons. In fact, it is the groupd OFFICIAL and UNABRIDGED Chhrter and is adhered to from Hanniyeh on down.


Trashpony: Insteas of trying to disparage me, why not try soemthing novel and provide a factual rebuttal?


Jonti: If you feel the need to ignore me, fine. I understand your fear of different opinions but why ask others to join you? Are you that terrified? If you are afraid, whatever but be an adult and allow others to make up their own minds. Thank you.


Moono [again]: I am not permitted to discuss current IDF/IAF opertional procedures with anyoneoutside of my rank.

GrandmaDeath: Most people in this forum, you included obvisouly, engage in OPINION, not fact. I do not try at all to be involved in such things. The facts that I DO choose to engage , I thoroughly research so i have no problerm committing myself to such facts.


Diego: You too can ignore me as I have never seen you provide a single fact.

TAXAMO: Israel never sponsored HAMAS. It did not actively pursue them but that s nowhere near anything like sponsoring. Please, facts, not propaganda.

 

[Taxamo Welf]

who needs facts when i have anti semitism?

 

[moono]

rachamim;

Moono: So you have never even seen the HAMAS Charter!!!!!!!!!? Ha! I knew it. Well, all you need to do is use the search function hear because not only have I provided that same information here in at least two threads [since you have been posting], I have also highlighted all Articles in the Chrter that deal with Israel, Zionists, and Jews. If you still have a problem finding it,. and somehow I am afraid you will, let me know, I will take the time to provide all relevant information to you but tell me,will it make any differen to you? In your prasing you seem to imply that it must not have been signed by the upper echelons. In fact, it is the groupd OFFICIAL and UNABRIDGED Chhrter and is adhered to from Hanniyeh on down.

I'll rephrase the request.

Please furnish a date for this 'charter' and a list of signatories.

 

[Grandma Death]

GrandmaDeath: Most people in this forum, you included obvisouly, engage in OPINION, not fact. I do not try at all to be involved in such things. The facts that I DO choose to engage , I thoroughly research so i have no problerm committing myself to such facts.

You really are so blind its quite scary

 

[goldenecitrone]

The trouble is, after what the UK and US have been doing to Iraqi women and children the last few years, it looks very hypocritical to keep spouting off about the Israelis all the time. But then again, we're all complicit so lets boo the Israelis to make ourselves feel better.

 

[Luther Blissett]

You really are so blind its quite scary

Maybe he's Shlomo's son?
http://www.democracynow.org/finkelstein-benami.shtml

 

[Luther Blissett]

The trouble is, after what the UK and US have been doing to Iraqi women and children the last few years, it looks very hypocritical to keep spouting off about the Israelis all the time. But then again, we're all complicit so lets boo the Israelis to make ourselves feel better.

We're not booing Israelis.
We're booing a) Military tactics and b) Govt. policy.

Btw, UK law isn't overridden by our Military commanders. In Israel, they ride roughshod over the civil law, and basically alot of the time, it looks like Israelis are subject to Military Junta, Dan 'Pioneer' Halutz and his martial law that kills alot of ordinary Palestinians who don't do violence, and also targets the Israelis who try to protect them from the military/illegal settlers who prevent Pals from harvesting crops, tilling Pal land, etc.

 

[Grandma Death]

GrandmaDeath: Most people in this forum, you included obvisouly, engage in OPINION, not fact. I do not try at all to be involved in such things. The facts that I DO choose to engage , I thoroughly research so i have no problerm committing myself to such facts.
.

Murder is a crime that requires premeditation, or at the very least a modicum of forethought. The IDF does not have, nor has it ever had, a policy of aiming for non-combatants. In fact, most cases where Arab non-combatants [and the occaisonal foreigner] are shot, there is absolutely no conclusive proof that Israel was the culprit.

Israeli officer: I was right to shoot 13-year-old child

Radio exchange contradicts army version of Gaza killing

Chris McGreal in Jerusalem
Wednesday November 24, 2004
The Guardian

An Israeli army officer who repeatedly shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in Gaza dismissed a warning from another soldier that she was a child by saying he would have killed her even if she was three years old.
The officer, identified by the army only as Captain R, was charged this week with illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and other relatively minor infractions after emptying all 10 bullets from his gun's magazine into Iman al-Hams when she walked into a "security area" on the edge of Rafah refugee camp last month.

A tape recording of radio exchanges between soldiers involved in the incident, played on Israeli television, contradicts the army's account of the events and appears to show that the captain shot the girl in cold blood.

The official account claimed that Iman was shot as she walked towards an army post with her schoolbag because soldiers feared she was carrying a bomb.

But the tape recording of the radio conversation between soldiers at the scene reveals that, from the beginning, she was identified as a child and at no point was a bomb spoken about nor was she described as a threat. Iman was also at least 100 yards from any soldier.

Instead, the tape shows that the soldiers swiftly identified her as a "girl of about 10" who was "scared to death".

The tape also reveals that the soldiers said Iman was headed eastwards, away from the army post and back into the refugee camp, when she was shot.

At that point, Captain R took the unusual decision to leave the post in pursuit of the girl. He shot her dead and then "confirmed the kill" by emptying his magazine into her body.

The tape recording is of a three-way conversation between the army watchtower, the army post's operations room and the captain, who was a company commander.

The soldier in the watchtower radioed his colleagues after he saw Iman: "It's a little girl. She's running defensively eastward."

Operations room: "Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?"

Watchtower: "A girl of about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death."

A few minutes later, Iman is shot in the leg from one of the army posts.

The watchtower: "I think that one of the positions took her out."

The company commander then moves in as Iman lies wounded and helpless.

Captain R: "I and another soldier ... are going in a little nearer, forward, to confirm the kill ... Receive a situation report. We fired and killed her ... I also confirmed the kill. Over."

Witnesses described how the captain shot Iman twice in the head, walked away, turned back and fired a stream of bullets into her body. Doctors at Rafah's hospital said she had been shot at least 17 times.

On the tape, the company commander then "clarifies" why he killed Iman: "This is commander. Anything that's mobile, that moves in the zone, even if it's a three-year-old, needs to be killed. Over."

The army's original account of the killing said that the soldiers only identified Iman as a child after she was first shot. But the tape shows that they were aware just how young the small, slight girl was before any shots were fired.

The case came to light after soldiers under the command of Captain R went to an Israeli newspaper to accuse the army of covering up the circumstances of the killing.

A subsequent investigation by the officer responsible for the Gaza strip, Major General Dan Harel, concluded that the captain had "not acted unethically".

However, the military police launched an investigation, which resulted in charges against the unit commander.

Iman's parents have accused the army of whitewashing the affair by filing minor charges against Captain R. They want him prosecuted for murder.

Record of a shooting

Watchtower
'It's a little girl. She's running defensively eastward'
Operations room
'Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?'
Watchtower
'A girl of about 10, she's behind the embankment, scared to death'
Captain R (after killing the girl)
'Anything moving in the zone, even a three-year-old, needs to be killed'

Clearly I can see you stick to facts and not opinion

 

[moono]

IOF scum.


Goldenecitrone;

The trouble is, after what the UK and US have been doing to Iraqi women and children the last few years, it looks very hypocritical to keep spouting off about the Israelis all the time. But then again, we're all complicit so lets boo the Israelis to make ourselves feel better.

Leave it out. Not to say that the Brits are all refined gentlemen but the Zionists commit more atrocities against the Palestinians in one week than the Brits have perpetrated against the Iraqis during the entire course of the stupid invasion.

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: A date for "this" Charter? Sure Moono, anything for an inquisitive teen: August 18th, 1988. A fairly good English and objective translation can be founrd at Yale Law School: www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm.

 

[rachamim18]

Luther: Actually, you know very little about Israel. Our civil court system is much stronger than our military apparrattusses. They set the tone for the country, not the converse.

GrandmaDeath: You post a radio exchange between two individuals in the IDF as proof of a policy? Are you serious? Wow. I suppose I should be a bit more understanding as with life, the net has all types chiming in. This is not reality though. For the record, that exchange and event around it has been discussed many times and I will not derail this thread with yet another rehashing. Surely you can find relevant fare.


Question though, how does your post prove that I am a liar? I would like to see how your mind works.

 

[Grandma Death]

GrandmaDeath: You post a radio exchange between two individuals in the IDF as proof of a policy?

No you fucking idiot. I posted it to show just how ludicrous this point was:

In fact, most cases where Arab non-combatants [and the occaisonal foreigner] are shot, there is absolutely no conclusive proof that Israel was the culprit.

 

[moono]

rachamim;

Question though, how does your post prove that I am a liar? I would like to see how your mind works.

I can see how grandma's mind works. I'd agree. I'd say that there was not a smidgeon of a doubt that you're a liar. So would anybody else with any respect for the truth and contempt for your dissemination of misinformation.

 

[Grandma Death]

rachamim;


I can see how grandma's mind works. I'd agree. I'd say that there was not a smidgeon of a doubt that you're a liar. So would anybody else with any respect for the truth and contempt for your dissemination of misinformation.

Indeed. I'd also like to add that I do not view the palestine/israel issue as clear cut as rachamim thinks I do. The difference between how I view the conflict and how rachamim views it is that I dont scrabble around looking for excuses and accept any propaganda shoved down my throat everytime an innocent Israeli civilian dies.

How Rachamim can even begin to argue his approach is fact based is beyond me and makes me fucking sick. He is an apologist-nothing more nothing less.

 

[rachamim18]

GrandmaDeath: Your expletives aside [always the sign of a small minded individual], that exchange proves nothing of the sort. A lack of investigations, independant witnesses, autopsies, and forensics, proves much more as most rational adults would conceed.

 

[moono]

GD;

How Rachamim can even begin to argue his approach is fact based is beyond me

Well, I think we can safely talk over the patient's head.

What rachamim does is to attempt to counter any 'bad' PR that disses the Zionist cause. This is exhausting work of course, particularly of late and now that every element of news concerning Israel is bad PR for the Zionist cause.
The workload has taken its toll, resulting in a form of repetitive strain injury to the frontal lobe ( intentional singular ) and an inability to determine the differences between information which contains an element of doubt and information which contains no element of doubt whatsoever.

By attempting to contradict the latter, even in the face of unanimous outrage and ridicule, rachamim has created a niche for himself. This niche comforts his Narcissistic isolation and is in itself secure because no other fucker wants it.

 

[Grandma Death]

GrandmaDeath: Your expletives aside [always the sign of a small minded individual], that exchange proves nothing of the sort. A lack of investigations, independant witnesses, autopsies, and forensics, proves much more as most rational adults would conceed.

Are you just playing dull now?

Would you like me to remind you of something:

In fact, most cases where Arab non-combatants [and the occaisonal foreigner] are shot, there is absolutely no conclusive proof that Israel was the culprit.

Care to point out to me if Israel isnt the culprit (i.e the IDF) in this one case Ive highlighted-then who is?

 

[Grandma Death]

GD;


Well, I think we can safely talk over the patient's head.

What rachamim does is to attempt to counter any 'bad' PR that disses the Zionist cause. This is exhausting work of course, particularly of late and now that every element of news concerning Israel is bad PR for the Zionist cause.
The workload has taken its toll, resulting in a form of repetitive strain injury to the frontal lobe ( intentional singular ) and an inability to determine the differences between information which contains an element of doubt and information which contains no element of doubt whatsoever.

By attempting to contradict the latter, even in the face of unanimous outrage and ridicule, rachamim has created a niche for himself. This niche comforts his Narcissistic isolation and is in itself secure because no other fucker wants it.

 

[rachamim18]

GrandmaDeath: Fact of the matter is, noone knows just who is responsible. Do the investigatory work, the autopsies and such, and you might have leg to stand on granny.

 

[Grandma Death]

GrandmaDeath: Fact of the matter is, noone knows just who is responsible. Do the investigatory work, the autopsies and such, and you might have leg to stand on granny.

Lets just try and break this down-cause I know you are struggling with it.


Who shot the girl? Its a simple question.