Bitcoin discussion and news

[slainte]

Hmm well I like the idea of Bitcoin an out in the open aka open source project where the rate is controlled ultimately in terms of the coin generation and whatever your sentiments of bitcoin it is people like Visa etc. which would crap themselves if this takes off as well as MOST of the BANKS in the world as they are out of the loop. Personally after bailing out them and then still have to endure the bonus system and ultimately they are not accountable and dictate to the world how the economy is and will be qualitative easing..this anarchy type currency which every oil generating bastard businessman has tried to regulate it to "drugs supporting terrorists" statements so dont buy it...has been endorsed by the world bank under sheer pressure I would state..I dont have any evidence for the endorsement of the world bank but its only an opinion so please no flaming opinion is opinion...I think its the NUTS and surely is a good thing.
With the raise of contactless payments etc. such a currency can and could really become the future of one to one money circumventing the banks and not allowing them to manipulate it in their interest...is surely a good thing

 

[Idaho]

just what the world needed right now eh.

It's probably less power than the hourly load from angry birds players. Yes it's a factor, but we are pissing away plenty more power elsewhere.

 

[bi0boy]

I reckon it took over 5000 GWh simply to extract the copper used in all the Euro coins.

 

[King Biscuit Time]

But that copper isn't the currency is it? The copper in the coins is euros what all the computers, software and bandwith used to trade is to bitcoin.

 

[Montgolfier]

This has been bothering me.

Bitcoin mining is the backbone to the transaction system right?

Given the fact that most of the 21 million coins will be mined in the next few years and mining difficulty will be really high

Surely the size of the system and the lack of mining (due to difficulty) will cause the network to fold?

 

[joustmaster]

This has been bothering me.

Bitcoin mining is the backbone to the transaction system right?

Given the fact that most of the 21 million coins will be mined in the next few years and mining difficulty will be really high

Surely the size of the system and the lack of mining (due to difficulty) will cause the network to fold?

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fee

 

[Idaho]

I think it will take nearer 10-20 years to mine them all. The difficulty algorithm adjusts to match output, so I don't think it's a problem.

 

[elbows]

I have not spent any time learning more since the other day but I think the energy use during mining is very stupid, and I dont think that setting a final limit for the number of bit coins is sensible either - if bitcoin caught on for a range of financial transactions then there will surely need to be a way to increase supply to meet demand. So the whole thing still strikes me as a game for those who are interested in making profit from fluctuations in exchange rates, which is not a new and exciting concept.

 

[camouflage]

I reckon it took over 5000 GWh simply to extract the copper used in all the Euro coins.

A lots made of the energy consumption in mining, but pretty sure it's a fraction of the energy splurged every day roasting Britains daily baccy intake, or even a Coronation Street tea break. I think there a far better criticisms of this technology to be had.

 

[joustmaster]

I have not spent any time learning more since the other day but I think the energy use during mining is very stupid, and I dont think that setting a final limit for the number of bit coins is sensible either - if bitcoin caught on for a range of financial transactions then there will surely need to be a way to increase supply to meet demand. So the whole thing still strikes me as a game for those who are interested in making profit from fluctuations in exchange rates, which is not a new and exciting concept.

If there is higher demand, then they will just be worth more. You don't have to deal in whole bitcoins. They can be split up in to smaller divisions.

 

[grit]

A lots made of the energy consumption in mining, but pretty sure it's a fraction of the energy splurged every day roasting Britains daily baccy intake, or even a Coronation Street tea break. I think there a far better criticisms of this technology to be had.

Absolutely, its a drop in the ocean.

 

[elbows]

If there is higher demand, then they will just be worth more. You don't have to deal in whole bitcoins. They can be split up in to smaller divisions.

So a load of inflation bollocks then. Hardly makes it a useful currency for most things then.

 

[ffsear]

What do you think will happen when they reopen.. Up or down?

I think price will stabilize around the $100 mark from now on.

 

[camouflage]

So a load of inflation bollocks then. Hardly makes it a useful currency for most things then.

Bitcoin can be slippy to get your head around, but the issue I can assure you isn't about inflation, but deflation. I've said it before and will again, if you must borrow, borrow fiat, never borrow bitcoin. Bitcoin is anticredit, it's only good for trading and saving.

 

[Idaho]

I think price will stabilize around the $100 mark from now on.

Not a chance.

All we can say is that it *has* hovered at $100 for a couple of days.

 

[Idaho]

So a load of inflation bollocks then. Hardly makes it a useful currency for most things then.

It's a novelish feature. It's certainly useful, but the jury is out as to whether it has a future.

 

[free spirit]

it's just a financial bubble built on nothing that will almost inevitably collapse back to nothing, or possibly back to just being used for illicit internet transactions which is it's only real world function that I can see.

Some will inevitably make a killing out of it, other will lose virtually everything they've invested in it, same as with any other bubble.

At the peak of tulip mania, in February 1637, some single tulip bulbs sold for more than 10 times the annual income of a skilled craftsman.

the tulip bubble

 

[Delroy Booth]

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/12/adam-smith-hates-bitcoin/

Paul Krugman on the energy issue and bitcoin.

 

[free spirit]

A lots made of the energy consumption in mining, but pretty sure it's a fraction of the energy splurged every day roasting Britains daily baccy intake, or even a Coronation Street tea break. I think there a far better criticisms of this technology to be had.

it'd provide the UK with electricity for half a day, and from the sounds of it the entire thing is based around the energy levels used increasing as it develops - I hope I'm wrong, but suspect that would be on an exponential curve, so the figures could get a lot more significant.

all for what?

 

[Idaho]

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/12/adam-smith-hates-bitcoin/

Paul Krugman on the energy issue and bitcoin.

That's fairly poor tbh. While there is some energy use, it isn't extraordinary by human standards. As has been said, there are many more productive and meaningful critiques you could do of it.

 

[Idaho]

it's just a financial bubble built on nothing that will almost inevitably collapse back to nothing, or possibly back to just being used for illicit internet transactions which is it's only real world function that I can see.

Some will inevitably make a killing out of it, other will lose virtually everything they've invested in it, same as with any other.

Bitcoin the technology and bitcoin the speculative event are different things.

I don't know you. I don't have your bank details, name, etc, nor you mine. Bitcoin allows us to send money to each other at very low cost. If you don't think that is in any way useful, then (shrugs)..

 

[elbows]

Bitcoin allows us to send money to each other at very low cost. If you don't think that is in any way useful, then (shrugs)..

That doesnt seem to be what attracts a lot of people to it at the moment though. And the low cost of the transactions is somewhat negated if its exchange rate remains unstable, you have to be very careful to convert it quickly after the transaction.

I'd be far more interested in a currency that was relatively immune to speculative wankers looking to make money by playing games and trying to take advantage of momentous moments of instability.

 

[free spirit]

Bitcoin the technology and bitcoin the speculative event are different things.

I don't know you. I don't have your bank details, name, etc, nor you mine. Bitcoin allows us to send money to each other at very low cost. If you don't think that is in any way useful, then (shrugs)..

It's useful for buying drugs and other grey / black economy stuff, but I assume that you must have some form of bitcoin identity / code in order for that transaction to be processed, which doesn't seem any different to a bank account number other than the bank account is traceable to you.

I manage to pay and get paid instantly via online banking just fine, though I'd not want to use it for buying drugs or anything else illicit, which is where I reckon bitcoins purpose really starts and ends, although I suppose it could have a role as a low / no cost version of paypal for internet transactions if it were stable enough.

 

[elbows]

Bitcoin can be slippy to get your head around, but the issue I can assure you isn't about inflation, but deflation.

Ah yes, I think I accidentally inverted the concept I was thinking of when considering the endgame of the plan to control the amount of bitcoins in circulation.

Anyway its yet another reason for me to wave my fist at anger at those who are presently in a position to buy significant quantities of bitcoins. Greedy wankers expecting to profit from holding a significant slice of the money pie that they hope they'l be able to exchange for more and more real stuff as time goes on. Like hoarders of vital goods during a period of rationing. Mind you even if bitcoin didnt go wrong there are plenty of opportunities for other powers to piss on their chips - just as with gold and bread, if they really got into a position where they were holding everyone else to ransom then the state could use its muscle to confiscate their hoard. A good reason why liberturdians hate the state. They can try to kid themselves that technology can place their 'wealth' beyond the reach of the state but it cant, because there is always the law and state-sanctioned violence.

 

[joustmaster]

It's useful for buying drugs and other grey / black economy stuff, but I assume that you must have some form of bitcoin identity / code in order for that transaction to be processed, which doesn't seem any different to a bank account number other than the bank account is traceable to you.

I manage to pay and get paid instantly via online banking just fine, though I'd not want to use it for buying drugs or anything else illicit, which is where I reckon bitcoins purpose really starts and ends, although I suppose it could have a role as a low / no cost version of paypal for internet transactions if it were stable enough.

A bitcoin transaction doesn't go directly to your computer. It goes to everyones. You just have the key that lets you access it later. So you can really tell who has a specific transaction.

And yes, online banking allows for fast, free transactions. Until you want to send it to another country.

 

[elbows]

Following on from my last point, should bitcoin truly become a force to be reckoned with then I cant really see various states and institutions letting the situation prevail. The money laundering, war on drugs, sanctions busting, tax evasion etc stuff will provide impetus and justifications to legislate. But I dont think they will bother unless volumes become massive.

 

[camouflage]

That doesnt seem to be what attracts a lot of people to it at the moment though. And the low cost of the transactions is somewhat negated if its exchange rate remains unstable, you have to be very careful to convert it quickly after the transaction.

I'd be far more interested in a currency that was relatively immune to speculative wankers looking to make money by playing games and trying to take advantage of momentous moments of instability.

Buying a stake in opportunity or future potential is just another thing that people spend money on, any sort of money.

 

[free spirit]

A bitcoin transaction doesn't go directly to your computer. It goes to everyones. You just have the key that lets you access it later. So you can really tell who has a specific transaction.

so you have a key rather than an account number....

And yes, online banking allows for fast, free transactions. Until you want to send it to another country.

fair enough, ease of international payments online is another valid purpose for them, though I suspect the market's pretty limited right now.

tulips also had a useful function in terms of producing pretty flowers, it's just the bubble blew that value up way above where it ought to have been until it suddenly crashed down again. IMO whatever value / merit bitcoin might have long term, is negated in the short term by the fact that it's obviously open to abuse / manipulation as an investment bubble, so in terms of over the counter transactions, I'd prefer to pay the fees for doing things in the normal way rather than risking losing 90% of the value of the transaction because the bubble happened to burst while I was holding the bitcoins.

 

[elbows]

Buying a stake in opportunity or future potential is just another thing that people spend money on, any sort of money.

And there are ways and scales of doing it that are more likely to have me shouting words like parasite.

 

[camouflage]

And there are ways and scales of doing it that are more likely to have me shouting words like parasite.

Quite a self righteous attitude you got there, you want to spell out in what way looking to hold a rising asset is being a parasite? I'd understand if people needed to live inside bitcoins but in this case the sneering looks groundless to me. You also implied most people that use bitcoin aren't doing so for things like remittance, considering that your own interest in the subject comes on the back of the media circus kicked up by yet another speculative mania, I suspect this crowds your understanding of the technology into a single dimensional context. Crying Tulip has become a tired old bitcoin cliché, yet the sense in the technology has survived two major bubbles now, and yes there probably will be further bubbles. I recommend not speculating, but I'm not a gambler.