Bitcoin discussion and news

[camouflage]

As i understand it there's a top limit, like 21 million bitcoins, and after that 8 decimal points. Once you hit that top point and there's a finite supply of money, but with a potentially ever-increasing demand to use it, then it's going to become more and more valuable as a currency. It's not going to be able to respond very well to market conditions if it's always deflating no matter what.



Yeah amongst many others, such as, the abolition of wage slavery, the abolition of private property, the abolition of the state. In a future communist society there wouldn't even be a "working-class" as such as all property would be held in common. Let's just back away from the issue of what a future communist society might look like, because it's such a massive digression it'll totally derail the thread.

However right here, stranded as we are with some variety of capitalism for the time being, yes it would cause a problem. It would lead to a collapse in demand and mass unemployment. It'd lead to recession and stagnation. Not good things if you're working class as the last few years have shown.

I think you might need to reconsider this "deflation is good for the working-class, bitcoins are generated via an algorithm that's inherently deflationary, therefore bitcoins are the workers friend" because I'm far from being an expert but I can see some flaws there. Deflation'ss not inherently good for the working class at all, deflation can lead to a decrease in prices which might in some exceptional circumstances lead to an increase in purchasing power for working class people, but because labour is also a commodity that's traded on the market then just as prices will come down so will wages. A company that has to cut 10% of it's prices every year will have to lay people off or reduce wages wholesale to remain profitable in a deflationary economy. What matters is the share of wages being paid out as a percentage of GDP, and how that translates as purchasing power, not deflation.

Please engage with this question: why borrow bitcoins to start a business, like an idiot... when you can borrow fiat to start the business, and use bitcoins and their deflationary nature, only to save?

 

[panpete]

Max Keiser ‏@maxkeiser

2m​

Bitcoin whiners remind me of 9/11 crybabies.

No whining here.
I only put in what I was prepared to lose, and it's better fun than any online gambling game I have ever paid.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Please engage with this question: why borrow bitcoins to start a business, like an idiot... when you can borrow fiat to start the business, and use bitcoins and their deflationary nature, only to save?

I'd like to try, but I don't really think I have much of any use to say to you. You'll probably get a more satisfying answer from someone who understands bitcoin stuff in more detail than me, and who has more than a rough knowledge of economics.

Anyone borrowing in a currency that's inherently deflationary is stupid, you borrow a grand and even at 0% interest you're gonna end up paying back more than what it's worth, and anyone who has their savings in a currency which is prone to massive crashes caused by it's somewhat vague regulatory framework (and being hacked etc etc) can't be too bright either, unless they're playing very careful attention every second of their waking life to when the next bubble and burst is coming.

Personally if I were a decadent captialist pigdog I'd use old fashioned credit and fiat money to start a business with and leave the bitcoin stuff to the neckbeards.

 

[Fez909]

I suppose I'd be classed as a 'neckbeard' or techno-utopian wanker or whatever, by some on here. And I'm a socialist. And I don't think Bitcoin is good for the working class (or society as a whole) whatsoever. It was interesting to me when I first heard about it (in a purely technical way), but I'm still deeply suspicious about the technology itself, and the motives of those who are involved in it: mostly libertarian, capitalist, Ayn Rand, freedom of the land types from what I can see.

The only things I have heard as a good use for it so far are for drugs (which could be solved by legislation) and sending money abroad and so avoiding Western Union fees etc. The latter is a really good use and I like that.

The downside is tax avoidance/evasion, other illegal things which are currently difficult to pay for (guns, human trafficking, etc) and speculation.

I think some of the ideas behind Bitcoin are good, but there needs to be another iteration before it's something that will benefit society.

 

[Idaho]

Lots of interesting angles.

Let's, for discussion sake, stick with the Bitcoin model. If mining was managed by each commune collectively, then transaction fees and mining wealth could be held in common by that commune.

As for deflation meaning you would never spend, this is nonsense. If the deflation rate was slight and steady, then any feasible project would just need to be more productive than this rate. So far, the one major problem socialised governments have had is their money devaluing. So much so that shelves are empty as key goods are underpriced, and foreign trade becomes ruinously expensive.

 

[Fez909]

Lots of interesting angles.

Let's, for discussion sake, stick with the Bitcoin model. If mining was managed by each commune collectively, then transaction fees and mining wealth could be held in common by that commune.

As for deflation meaning you would never spend, this is nonsense. If the deflation rate was slight and steady, then any feasible project would just need to be more productive than this rate. So far, the one major problem socialised governments have had is their money devaluing. So much so that shelves are empty as key goods are underpriced, and foreign trade becomes ruinously expensive.

You say "let's stick with the bitcoin model" then immediately propose a system which has nothing in common with the bitcoin model.

 

[Idaho]

I meant model of fixed coin production and transaction management via mining. Sorry to be unclear.

 

[Idaho]

Its volatile because no central bank propping it up.

If people want to pay less and its accepted down goes the price.

Most currencies are capable of being volatile. Plenty of currencies managed by central banks that have crashed. See south east Asia currency crisis.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Lots of interesting angles.

Let's, for discussion sake, stick with the Bitcoin model. If mining was managed by each commune collectively, then transaction fees and mining wealth could be held in common by that commune.

As for deflation meaning you would never spend, this is nonsense. If the deflation rate was slight and steady, then any feasible project would just need to be more productive than this rate. So far, the one major problem socialised governments have had is their money devaluing. So much so that shelves are empty as key goods are underpriced, and foreign trade becomes ruinously expensive.

You do like those big if's Idaho I must say. Managing the deflation rate is no easier than managing inflation. It's amazing how so many libertarians (not you btw) have nightmares about runaway inflation, but think deflation is far easier to tame and deflationary spirals don't exist and don't cause widespread damage.

I never said it means you never spend, only that demand would be reduced as wages would be forced down and people would get laid off. But that depends on how much faster demands drops, and purchasing power, and a whole host of other things along with it.

Anyway I sense you're quite committed to this bitcoin stuff and see some potential in it. I'm more skeptical, and think it's an interesting experiment unlikely to provide much of practical use.

 

[King Biscuit Time]

No whining here.
I only put in what I was prepared to lose, and it's better fun than any online gambling game I have ever paid.

Freudian Slip?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Winklevoss twins invest heavily in Bitcoins:

Bad news for all the hackers and libertarians out there supporting the bitcoin movement: Your favorite currency seems to have fallen into the wrong hands.

Venture capitalists Tyler and Cameron Winklevoss claim to own about 1 percent of all bitcoins in existence, about $11 million worth.

It's utterly unsurprising that the Winklevoss twins, who are famous for suing Mark Zuckerberg over the idea for Facebook, have decided to announce their investment in bitcoins at the height of public mania over the digital currency. The Winklevii told The New York Times that they're excited to get involved with bitcoins on the ground floor.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/11/winklevoss-bitcoin_n_3063831.html

 

[Sunray]

Most currencies are capable of being volatile. Plenty of currencies managed by central banks that have crashed. See south east Asia currency crisis.

Yes, but I can't think of a currency that went down 60% or more in a few days. Black Wednesday was 17% devaluation and that was considered catastrophic.

 

[spacemonkey]

This rise and crash has provided great entertainment, a great week to be ill and stuck in bed.

The overarching theme is that nobody who has followed bitcoin for the last few years is remotely surprised.

 

[Idaho]

You do like those big if's Idaho I must say. Managing the deflation rate is no easier than managing inflation. It's amazing how so many libertarians (not you btw) have nightmares about runaway inflation, but think deflation is far easier to tame and deflationary spirals don't exist and don't cause widespread damage.

I never said it means you never spend, only that demand would be reduced as wages would be forced down and people would get laid off. But that depends on how much faster demands drops, and purchasing power, and a whole host of other things along with it.

Anyway I sense you're quite committed to this bitcoin stuff and see some potential in it. I'm more skeptical, and think it's an interesting experiment unlikely to provide much of practical use.

I wouldn't say I was committed. I just think it's very interesting. If you look back at the start of the industrial revolution, there were seemingly big changes. But the scale of the total changes it would bring about would have been difficult to guess at. We are at a similar stage with the communications revolution. It has taken a mere 10 years for internet shopping to go from fringe and weird to mainstream. I simply cannot believe that money and politics will be immune from all of this.

Bitcoin itself may be a flash in the pan, but something like it is in the post.

 

[spacemonkey]

I think editor should accept bitcoins for the server fund.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I think editor should accept bitcoins for the server fund.

If the transaction costs are low enough I don't see why he shouldn't.

 

[fredfelt]

I wouldn't say I was committed. I just think it's very interesting. If you look back at the start of the industrial revolution, there were seemingly big changes. But the scale of the total changes it would bring about would have been difficult to guess at. We are at a similar stage with the communications revolution. It has taken a mere 10 years for internet shopping to go from fringe and weird to mainstream. I simply cannot believe that money and politics will be immune from all of this.

Bitcoin itself may be a flash in the pan, but something like it is in the post.

The postal service may prove to be a useful comparison. Email replaced the need to post may types of letters, and it also changed the way people interact. Now the postal service and email operate side by side, each having similar functions but very different features. I see Bitcoin, or a similar virtual currency operating in a similar way - alongside national currencies but not replacing them, except perhaps in extreme circumstances.

Personally I'm fascinated by a peer to peer currency and how value through scarcity has been implemented digitally. The widely fluctuating rate of exchange hinders Bitcoin as a store of wealth but it has less impact on Bitcoin as a means of exchange.

 

[Idaho]

Bitcoin has great potential to finally do micro payments on the Internet. You could have a btc wallet with a subscription service which releases micro payments linked to your browser behaviour.

 

[camouflage]

I think editor should accept bitcoins for the server fund.

I suggested it to him over a year ago, and got k'blanked.

Just think, we could all be reading the forums in nice swanky Times New Roman against a deep imperial purple background with golden trim by now.

ETA: I didn't get k'blanked, he suggested I start a thread and see what the spread of opinions were. So maybe one day.

 

[camouflage]

The postal service may prove to be a useful comparison. Email replaced the need to post may types of letters, and it also changed the way people interact. Now the postal service and email operate side by side, each having similar functions but very different features. I see Bitcoin, or a similar virtual currency operating in a similar way - alongside national currencies but not replacing them, except perhaps in extreme circumstances.

Personally I'm fascinated by a peer to peer currency and how value through scarcity has been implemented digitally. The widely fluctuating rate of exchange hinders Bitcoin as a store of wealth but it has less impact on Bitcoin as a means of exchange.

I think we should 'allow' the volatility for now, as more characteristic of the early stages of this type of thing than in any way inherent to cryptographic/deflationary commodocurrencies in principal. It's like watching a rubber dingy just starting to be inflated and deciding that inflatable boats are way to wobbly and unstable an idea to be having a paddle in.

 

[camouflage]

Winklevoss twins invest heavily in Bitcoins:



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/11/winklevoss-bitcoin_n_3063831.html

I dunno about what the libertards will think, but it has come to my attention that all sorts of unsavory characters are in the habit of having amounts of money. Sometimes quite large amounts.

 

[rover07]

Bitcoin has great potential to finally do micro payments on the Internet. You could have a btc wallet with a subscription service which releases micro payments linked to your browser behaviour.

What is the smallest fraction of a bitcoin you can payout?

 

[Crispy]

What is the smallest fraction of a bitcoin you can payout?

Theoretically, a hundred milionth.

 

[Fez909]

I think we should be given a hundred millionth of a BitCoin for every like we 'receive'. You can either top up your account with 'likes' to distribute as you see fit, or just post really good stuff until you get a decent balance, then you're free to 'like' as well.

Of course any BTC donated to the server fund will be used by editor to reward those who do not deviate from the mono-thought clique position, and so will shape acceptable discourse here, but there's not much we can do about such abuse of privilege.

 

[rover07]

Kerching! 0.00000001 btc in the bank!

Edit: I read that wrong, i thought you meant, you get btc for every like you give.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

I dunno about what the libertards will think, but it has come to my attention that all sorts of unsavory characters are in the habit of having amounts of money. Sometimes quite large amounts.

If the Winklevii are involved and egging on small investors to get in you can bet that its a highly manipulated currency and the smart money has already been made.

 

[camouflage]

If the Winklevii are involved and egging on small investors to get in you can bet that its a highly manipulated currency and the smart money has already been made.

Definitely, it's a veritable perfect competition of manipulation with an unknown number of participants. The market doesn't necessarily sit there and passively be subject to ones plans though, and 'smart' isn't really a form of money.

In the film Wargames a situation called a Strange Game is found to be one where the only way to win is not to play, if that's what you mean it's certainly not a dumb strategy with this thing in my opinion.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

Definitely, it's a veritable perfect competition of manipulation. The market doesn't necessarily sit there and passively be subject to ones plans though, and 'smart' isn't really a form of money.

I remember when "pump and dump" got you in trouble with the SEC. There isn't anything you can't get away with if you have enough money.

 

[Idaho]

Kerching! 0.00000001 btc in the bank!

Edit: I read that wrong, i thought you meant, you get btc for every like you give.

I tell you what, for everyone on this thread who sets up a wallet and likes this, I will give you 0.001 BTC

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

.... and 'smart' isn't really a form of money.

"Smart" is like "sex". It's money if you know where to shop.