not-bono-ever
meh
time for me to set up a Bitcoin Options marketplace I think.
Bitcoin discussion and news
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ffsear
Well-Known Member
More speculation should actually help to stabilize it. But I agree, for a large retailer to accept something so volatile would be far too risky.
Idaho
blah blah blah
The instability is inevitable in something novel which has been created outside the banking industry. Currently there is something of a vicious circle. Interest in bitcoin leads to frothy investment, leads to legit people keeping away. Most bitcoin enthusiasts want the bubble to pop and for a slower pace of uptake and infrastructural investment.
The price volatility is being dealt with by SR in a couple of ways. Firstly prices are floating, linked to the mtgox usd/btc rate. So your gram of coke could be 1.3 btc one day and 0.8 the next. Secondly sr offers sellers some kind of post sale currency hedge service that I don't fully understand.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
So we have two answers to kabbes here 1) it's inevitable and 2) it's being dealt with.
1) doesn't deal with it and 2) doesn't say how, in fact it just says yeah that's how it is, and so really is just 1) re-stated in a diff form.
1) doesn't deal with it and 2) doesn't say how, in fact it just says yeah that's how it is, and so really is just 1) re-stated in a diff form.
ffsear
Well-Known Member
elbows
Well-Known Member
Indeed. I believe this was a point I tried to make the other day, and was what set me off on the path of ranting about speculators and what is really attracting many of the people to bitcoin at this point.
Anyway I dont see much point spending more time contributing further to this thread at the moment as its clear what my criticisms are and the nature of the defence against them and I'm not going to go round in circles.
Anyway, slightly related, today's seen the biggest one-day collapse in the price of Gold for 30 years. All those libertarians who've put their savings into Gold over the last couple of years because of "socialism!" and weimar style hyper-inflation are being bankrupted as we speak.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324030704578424123590556556.html?mod=e2tw
Wonder if Jazzz had put all his savings in Gold and Silver?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324030704578424123590556556.html?mod=e2tw
Wonder if Jazzz had put all his savings in Gold and Silver?
Kanda
Diving wanker
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
... and this is the ten year:
Frankly, even with recent falls, not much has beaten gold over the last decade.
This last line - why? Why add it? Why make it about what "does best"? See?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Yep, wasn't having a go, but this stuff is just built into it. It has to have those sort of things. But you a) can't talk about it or b) pretend it doesn't - larded with idaho's personal abuse and i'm putting my fingers in my ears now - start another thread approach.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Have you seen you last few days contribs to this thread? You're out of control - have you been sniffing them?
... and this is the ten year:
Frankly, even with recent falls, not much has beaten gold over the last decade.
I did say "over the last couple of years" for a reason y'know. But I concede the general point about long-term gold prices.
elbows
Well-Known Member
I was talking about on this thread, where the onus on those who dont like me pointing out emperor bitcoins lack of clothes is to refute the points properly. Not tell me to start another thread, or attempt to use my modesty about how well I understand bitcoin to make out that I know nothing, or to protest in a manner that lacks proper detail.
It would be one thing if nobody had pretended that these bitcoin games were anything other than a fascination with profiting from fluctuations. But no, they were the ones that brought up all the other alleged theoretical wonders this currency might enable. Should they be allowed to do that without having these details scrutinised?
What is a currency supposed to be for anyway? Its supposed to be a flexible token that enables transactions to take place without having to resort to very crude bartering systems. People might reasonably expect it to be a store of wealth. Almost everything else is secondary or gambling or attempting to profit without adding any real value/doing meaningful work.
Therefore what I would be looking for primarily in a currency would be stability, mechanisms to prevent people gaming the system, etc. The ideal currency would always be available in just the right quantity to match the number of transactions that people want to perform, whilst not fluctuating in value in a manner that creates risks and rewards. But bitcoin appears to be preoccupied with a very different set of criteria, some of which may be desirable but are surely secondary to the most important attributes of a currency. Perhaps there are attributes I have missed or misunderstood which would enable the sensible criteria I've highlighted, but I dont see much in the way of anyone really trying to explain that in replies of the last day or so, quite the opposite.
Play the games if you want to, just dont expect me to keep quiet if you start dressing it up as having some higher pure purpose that will be good for humanity unless you are prepared to discuss what features it had that would actually enable this. Personally I think its already too late for that, with any ability to make out that this currency can support decent political, moral etc principals already undermined by the undisguised drooling glee of marketplace trading wank. As a result of that the scene has already been set for great cynicism regarding those who take a positive position on bitcoin, it just becomes another part of the usual game. And thats not my fault, it was already evident before I pointed it out, and even effective attacks on my words cannot rehide those aspects.
camouflage
gaslit at scale.
Well, if that's how you feel then I don't think you should choose to involve yourself in bitcoins after all.
Idaho
blah blah blah
It's still just an experiment. Unlike most currencies, it's been created with the bullshit first. You can only buy socks, servers and drugs with it, yet it has a derivatives market, exchanges, arbitrage and escrow, etc.
As for money of any sort supporting political or moral principles - I have yet to see that ever happen on planet earth.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Any chance of a reply to the detailed post?
Idaho
blah blah blah
Who me? I largely agree with elbows sentiment, just not his reasoning.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Yeah you, any chance of a reply to the detailed post?
Idaho
blah blah blah
On what in particular would you like me to share my wisdom?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Reply to elbows post. Like now.
Or drag it out BBC style pulling the sinews till we can see through them.
Or drag it out BBC style pulling the sinews till we can see through them.
Idaho
blah blah blah
I gave a brief reply to it. Are you hoping for some kind of line by line refutation or something? The man has said what he wants to say and expressed himself clearly, I gave a little comment. What more is there to do? I am not going to tell him he is wrong. Indeed on many things he says, I agree. There are a few points I could challenge. I don't really do the whole red-faced spittle flecked rant thing though, and I hate those threads where someone takes a post and breaks it into separate quoted sentences. It's pointless.
Idaho
blah blah blah
Just to make butchersapron happy. I can't stand to see him pouting.
Bitcoin is not an alternative to capitalism. It is meant to slot right in there. And your objections and hostility on that score are entirely reasonable. It will do all the things that normal money does in capitalism. And it will create all the speculation and city of londonesque pissing about that money brings with it. It was created by libertards (only learnt this expression this week and I can't stop using it) who were entirely happy with capitalism, but have a thing about gold, inflation, public spending. All the things that libertards go on about. If those people really piss you off, then bitcoin is just one giant bullseye. They don't piss me off personally. They are foolish and an odd mix of naive, selfish, greedy, idealistic and utterly un-self aware, but I can stand to be in the same room as them.
It being unstable - it's fair enough to point that out as a problem with adoption, but I don't think it's a valid criticism of the entire project. The protocol was devised, and started off, from then it's been up to people to do what they want with it. The majority of activity in btc has been people quickly buying in, spending on drugs, then getting out. They don't want to expose themselves to the fluctuation, they just like the anonymous cash thing. I like the anonymous cash thing. I think it's great. I think privacy is a worthy goal. Without going too far down the conspiranoid path, I don't trust governments and corporations with all the data they have. No need to give them more.
You are right to be cynical. No bitcoiners are really helping anyone. There is no great work being done. It's mainly nerdy fascination with the novel + some greed + whatever nonsense the individual brings to it. So far it is just the same old speculation and tertiary financial sector bullshit. It's not curing malaria or feeding the poor. It's a game for wealthy people to play. But useful technologies can come from unlikely sources, and have unlikely parentage and upbringing. I am still finding the experiment interesting.
Bitcoin is not an alternative to capitalism. It is meant to slot right in there. And your objections and hostility on that score are entirely reasonable. It will do all the things that normal money does in capitalism. And it will create all the speculation and city of londonesque pissing about that money brings with it. It was created by libertards (only learnt this expression this week and I can't stop using it) who were entirely happy with capitalism, but have a thing about gold, inflation, public spending. All the things that libertards go on about. If those people really piss you off, then bitcoin is just one giant bullseye. They don't piss me off personally. They are foolish and an odd mix of naive, selfish, greedy, idealistic and utterly un-self aware, but I can stand to be in the same room as them.
It being unstable - it's fair enough to point that out as a problem with adoption, but I don't think it's a valid criticism of the entire project. The protocol was devised, and started off, from then it's been up to people to do what they want with it. The majority of activity in btc has been people quickly buying in, spending on drugs, then getting out. They don't want to expose themselves to the fluctuation, they just like the anonymous cash thing. I like the anonymous cash thing. I think it's great. I think privacy is a worthy goal. Without going too far down the conspiranoid path, I don't trust governments and corporations with all the data they have. No need to give them more.
You are right to be cynical. No bitcoiners are really helping anyone. There is no great work being done. It's mainly nerdy fascination with the novel + some greed + whatever nonsense the individual brings to it. So far it is just the same old speculation and tertiary financial sector bullshit. It's not curing malaria or feeding the poor. It's a game for wealthy people to play. But useful technologies can come from unlikely sources, and have unlikely parentage and upbringing. I am still finding the experiment interesting.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Much better, and in stark contrast to the earlier claims about my ignorance, leftist manuals and straw men.
I am done now unless I come up with any different points or new angles. I agree with your comments about technology, although in this specific case I'm struggling to see the potential but I raraely say never so I'll keep half an eye on it. There are important parts of the jigsaw missing in this case but I will be interested to see if other approaches, algorithms etc offer something with greater potential one day. Peer to peer in general has all sorts of potential but sadly its barely been tapped so far.
I am done now unless I come up with any different points or new angles. I agree with your comments about technology, although in this specific case I'm struggling to see the potential but I raraely say never so I'll keep half an eye on it. There are important parts of the jigsaw missing in this case but I will be interested to see if other approaches, algorithms etc offer something with greater potential one day. Peer to peer in general has all sorts of potential but sadly its barely been tapped so far.
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