Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Rob Ray]

I am being perfectly serious. Plus I expect nothing, not politeness, not analysis from the NATO fan club here.

No, you aren't. At no point have I endorsed Nato, and my comment above had nothing whatsoever to do with Nato. You have spent a great deal of this thread whining about how badly you're being treated (which I have actually sided with you on several times), yet seem perfectly happy to repeatedly throw inaccurate labels at me whenever I contradict you. It's shit behaviour and anything but seroius.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I've always been a bit baffled by the "we owe them a debt" narrative tbh, as though

a) the Red Army was doing it for our benefit
b) the USSR which oversaw that effort and sacrificed all those millions of lives still exists
c) anyone much from the period is still alive to thank
d) we're supposed to consider the actions of a self-interested nationstate defending its own borders to comprise a collective debt that "we" (what as, a part of the global working class?) need to repay.

Like I'll happily praise the people who fought and died to stop the Nazis, but they no longer exist and I owe nothing at all to the men of the Kremlin in 2024.

The troops who fought the Nazis included troops who also invaded Poland, Finland, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia and Rumania whilst in alliance with the Third Reich, in a process which also involved massacres and mass deportations. All at the behest of comrade Stalin. When their erstwhile ally turned on them it was the people of Byelorussia and Ukraine who suffered the worst, not that that matters. Plenty of Russians died as well, but it is more than a bit simplistic to say that we owe anything to any particular demographic or polity, as if there was only one such entity. None of the events of WW2 happened with the endorsement of the people. They were all victims of other people's decisions. To think you can repay a debt to someone from 80 years ago by supporting a current dictator in his own quest for historical importance is just daft.

 

[ska invita]

It would be more accurate to say that Putin and the oligarchs stole money from the Russian people with the assistance of the UK financial services industry amongst others.

a "shock therapy" governmental theft system created off the peg by the USA + IMF in 1992

 

[gosub]

I am being perfectly serious. Plus I expect nothing, not politeness, nor analysis from the NATO fan club here.

Would be a bit odd but if you like

Ukraine Russia conflict.
NATO troops lost ....30,000 added
NATO territory gained Finland, Sweden


Probably would have put in the tangentially related thread myself

 

[sleaterkinney]

We would have got done. The USSR took the brunt though. Thirty plus million dead. As I said, we owe a debt.

Would the UK or the USSR have done either without American Lend Lease?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

The USSR was doing it for their own survival and they did it with the U.K.’s assistance and have shown gratitude down the years, i.e. paying for the refurb of HMS Belfast’s masts in 2012 in recognition of the role it played in defeating the Nazis on the Eastern Front.

The idea that ‘we’ owe the Russian federation something cos Germany used bullets on the USSR rather than us is student politics at its most puerile.

 

[discokermit]

last week, ten russian planes shot down. this week im not hearing of any. is the air defence gone? or were the ten partly or wholly made up?

 

[tim]

Sounds like a cynical attempt to disrupt a free and democratic election to me

No, just murdering a some people who didn't deserve to be murdered to score propaganda points.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

last week, ten russian planes shot down. this week im not hearing of any. is the air defence gone? or were the ten partly or wholly made up?

Have you considered that after such losses the Russians kept their planes away?

 

[discokermit]

Have you considered that after such losses the Russians kept their planes away?

i did but the rate of bombs being dropped doesnt seem to have slowed though.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

i did but the rate of bombs being dropped doesnt seem to have slowed though.

Not sure they drop any bombs, firing missiles in the general direction of cities seems to be the thing, they can do that from further away if coming close gets their launching aircraft shot down, won't affect their accuracy as they are not going after military targets anyway, if it causes terror among the civilian population it's all good for them.

 

[tim]

i did but the rate of bombs being dropped doesnt seem to have slowed though.

Aren't bomber raids a bit passe? I get the impression that it's mostly balistic missiles and drones being used to murder people by the military on both sides.

 

[discokermit]

Not sure they drop any bombs, firing missiles in the general direction of cities seems to be the thing, they can do that from further away if coming close gets their launching aircraft shot down, won't affect their accuracy as they are not going after military targets anyway, if it causes terror among the civilian population it's all good for them.

this is nonsense. they are dropping a hundred glide bombs every day on the frontline. one and a halt ton bombs.

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/10/europe/russian-guided-bomb-ukraine-frontline-intl/index.html

 

[teqniq]

Not sure they drop any bombs, firing missiles in the general direction of cities seems to be the thing, they can do that from further away if coming close gets their launching aircraft shot down, won't affect their accuracy as they are not going after military targets anyway, if it causes terror among the civilian population it's all good for them.

Lots of Shahed drones and artillery as well.

 

[discokermit]

Aren't bomber raids a bit passe? I get the impression that it's mostly balistic missiles and drones being used to murder people by the military on both sides.

not with the fab-1500 and such. which seems to me to be their main focus at the moment.

 

[PTK]

Doing stuff that would actively encourage the end of Breton Woods and encouraging the rise of BRICS seems a folly to me

I thought the Breton Woods agreement came to end when Nixon devalued the dollar in 1971.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

this is nonsense. they are dropping a hundred glide bombs every day on the frontline. one and a halt ton bombs.

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/10/europe/russian-guided-bomb-ukraine-frontline-intl/index.html

Fair enough, glide bombs are launched from planes from a long way from their targets, not quite what I think of as dropping bombs as they do the same thing that propelled missiles do, but if it proves your point and gives you that warm, fuzzy feeling, fill yer boots,

 

[discokermit]

One soldier from Ukraine’s 46th Separate Airmobile Brigade told CNN from the frontline town of Krasnohorivka in Donetsk last week: “Previously, we were only shelled with artillery. Now the orcs [Russians] have taken on the town more aggressively [and] started using air force assets, particularly the FAB-1500.”

“Why they are using the FAB-1500? Because the damage done by it is very serious. If you survive, you are guaranteed to have a contusion.”

“It puts a lot of pressure on soldiers’ morale. Not all of our guys can withstand it. While they are more or less used to the FAB-500 by now, but the FAB-1500 is hell.”



from that cnn article, which shows the fab-1500 might be new the fab-500 has been in use for a while.

 

[tim]

this is nonsense. they are dropping a hundred glide bombs every day on the frontline. one and a halt ton bombs.

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/10/europe/russian-guided-bomb-ukraine-frontline-intl/index.html

So guided gliding munitions released rather than dropped from planes beyond the range of Ukrainian air defences. I assume that the Ukrainians are capable of shooting down aircraft within range of their air defences. I also assume that planes and helicopters in war zones are not just or primarily used to drop bombs.

 

[discokermit]

Fair enough, glide bombs are launched from planes from a long way from their targets, not quite what I think of as dropping bombs as they do the same thing that propelled missiles do, but if it proves your point and gives you that warm, fuzzy feeling, fill yer boots,

if your news sources havent mentioned fab bombs you should widen your news sources.

 

[teqniq]

This woman who I follow who is actually in Kherson talks mainly of shelling, drones and missiles. Bearing in mind that these are attacks on civilians and civilian infrastructure she is reporting, not military targets.

https://twitter.com/ZarinaZabrisky

 

[cupid_stunt]

last week, ten russian planes shot down. this week im not hearing of any. is the air defence gone? or were the ten partly or wholly made up?

The clue is in the link you posted!

The bomb is the FAB-1500, essentially a 1.5-tonne weapon of which nearly half comprises high explosives. It is delivered from above by fighter jets from a distance of some 60-70 kilometers, out of range of many Ukrainian air defenses.

this is nonsense. they are dropping a hundred glide bombs every day on the frontline. one and a halt ton bombs.

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/10/europe/russian-guided-bomb-ukraine-frontline-intl/index.html

 

[discokermit]

So guided gliding munitions released rather than dropped from planes beyond the range of Ukrainian air defences. I assume that the Ukrainians are capable of shooting down aircraft within range of their air defences. I assume that planes and helicopters in war zones are not just or primarily used to drop bombs.

released rather than dropped? what does that mean? its the same thing.
beyond the range of "some" air defences. not the ones at the front. which were deployed due to the threat of the fab bombs. like the patriot that got blown up the other day.
the increased bombing led to ukraine moving some of its air defence to the front which is now getting destroyed.

 

[discokermit]

The clue is in the link you posted!

MANY

not all.

the clue is in the link i posted.

 

[cupid_stunt]

MANY

not all.

the clue is in the link i posted.

In other words, the Russians have to learnt to keep away from the FEW that should shoot them down.

 

[discokermit]

In other words, the Russians have to learnt to keep away from the FEW that should shoot them down.

lol.

 

[tim]

not with the fab-1500 and such. which seems to me to be their main focus at the moment.

Even as a child, I felt that Gerry Anderson was a pernicious influence.

 

[Rimbaud]

We get it. You stand squarely by NATO.

And you stand by the British, French, Belgian and Dutch Empires by being (presumably) against Nazi Germany. You dastardly imperialist you.

This is a dishonest line of attack and you know it.

 

[discokermit]

And you stand by the British, French, Belgian and Dutch Empires by being (presumably) against Nazi Germany. You dastardly imperialist you.

This is a dishonest line of attack and you know it.

we're talking about the ukraine war now.

 

[tim]

released rather than dropped? what does that mean? its the same thing.
beyond the range of "some" air defences. not the ones at the front. which were deployed due to the threat of the fab bombs. like the patriot that got blown up the other day.
the increased bombing led to ukraine moving some of its air defence to the front which is now getting destroyed.

Released rather than dropped, because they travel to a distant target mostly on a horizontal trajectory rather than a nearby target in a vertical direction.