The 2023 Russian Coup.

[Spymaster]

What’s that quote then?

Marx bollocks.

 

[The39thStep]

What’s that quote then? I don’t understand it.

It's from Marx's Critique of the Political Economy. You won't be the only one on here who hasn't read or understood it tbh.

 

[bimble]

This suggests that the plane was full of key Wagner figures, an efficient decapitation of their leadership structure.

Who are the other Wagner group leaders presumed dead in plane crash?

Those said to have died alongside Yevgeny Prigozhin include Dmitry Utkin, whose call sign was ‘Wagner’

www.theguardian.com

 

[Artaxerxes]

This suggests that the plane was full of key Wagner figures, an efficient decapitation of their leadership structure.

Who are the other Wagner group leaders presumed dead in plane crash?

Those said to have died alongside Yevgeny Prigozhin include Dmitry Utkin, whose call sign was ‘Wagner’

www.theguardian.com

Never put all your racist eggs in one basket is a fairly basic principle you’d assume an org on high alert would acknowledge even outside of a conflict situation

 

[Idris2002]

It's from Marx's Critique of the Political Economy. You won't be the only one on here who hasn't read or understood it tbh.

I think it's perfectly clear.

 

[Pickman's model]

True, but it also shows that trusting Putin is a bad idea.

As ever in the world of grown ups, very different things can be true at the same time:

It's a terror attack - rather like Salisbury - a ridiculously convoluted and error prone way of killing someone that makes Putin look more Bond Villain than just ruthless and efficient. It'll also instil fear.

It shows that the ridiculously long kill chain was secure from Freinds of Prigozhin - how many people must of been in on it: Putin's office, Minister of Defence's office, Chief of Staff's office, military district, SAM unit, air traffic control, people at the airport (baggage handlers?) to confirm which plane Progozin got on - every one of these links could of had a leak, but didn't.

It shows that Putin can pull off a 'spectacular', but it also shows that Putin feels he needs to - that he's so offended by Prigozhin that a jail cell, or a car bomb, or two bullets to the head aren't enough.

Putin undoubtedly did a clever thing - he used soft words to disarm the rebellion /coup/mutiny/whatever at a time when he was obviously uncertain about the support he had from the military and national guard, and then when he was much more secure, and they thought they were, he pounced, and destroyed Wagner.

But in closing one door, he's opened another - that he can't be trusted.

I think a live Prigozhin, for all Wagner's usefulness for Russian foreign policy, was simply a headache/danger/signal-to-others that Putin couldn't live with - and in his position, I'd agree.

Putin is undoubtedly in a stronger position than he was 8 weeks ago - the other side of that coin is that it's been shown to all that half measures will only get you killed, so....

To a large extent the fragility of Putin's government remains - as Wagner went north the Army didn't get involved, Rosgvardyia took the day off, and the FSB failed to notice the planning. None of those organisations have been shaken up, none have had their leaders replaced. It's possible that the military is going to get a shoeing now Vlad feels secure, but based on past intelligence/security disasters, both FSB and Rosgvardyia will be left alone despite being the biggest culprits.

Perhaps the only certainty this achieves that that we can now solidly put to bed the fantasy that Prigozhins mutiny/coup/whatever was a put up job by Uncle Vlad the Master Strategist....

Years back I saw a cartoon in mad magazine about the politeness of film villains. And it's true, most of bond's enemies are extremely courteous even when describing the brutal and yes often heath robinson ways in which they intend to do away with 007

 

[Pickman's model]

I think it's perfectly clear.

It is

 

[RD2003]

The German model is the way to go, started a European war and two world wars and look at them now

Maybe the Twitter multitudes are on to something when they shriek about Putin being the new Hitler. Germany has never looked back since the genocide days.

 

[bimble]

I think it's perfectly clear.

Doesn’t say anything about imagination though does it it’s about economy ?

 

[Wilf]

The subeditor had “hit by potato lorry” in the sweepstake. You can’t blame them for wanting proof. Everyone put in a tenner!

Until yesterday, the office junior thought he was in with a shout with 'pig fell off a balcony and landed on him'.

 

[Idris2002]

Doesn’t say anything about imagination though does it it’s about economy ?

An act of the imagination is an act of will - and liberal democratic peacenik-dom cannot be willed into existence via an act of the imagination. The relations of production which are indispensable, i.e. there's no escaping them, are also independent of the will, and they set limits to what can be done by the human will (or, implicitly, the human imagination).

 

[Pickman's model]

Doesn’t say anything about imagination though does it it’s about economy ?

Social production covers a multitude of things. For instance, how are you at imagining a post-capitalist world? Imagination isn't all elves and fairies and magic you know

 

[bimble]

An act of the imagination is an act of will - and liberal democratic peacenik-dom cannot be willed into existence via an act of the imagination. The relations of production which are indispensable, i.e. there's no escaping them, are also independent of the will, and they set limits to what can be done by the human will (or, implicitly, the human imagination).

Ok. But of all people wasn’t he a man who believed in the power of peoples will to effect change, he didn’t think that things were static, knew people could imagine different ways of doing things & then therefore change their circumstances. But Anyway.

I get the argument that many Russians may feel that the current regime is a better bet than whatever chaos might happen when it implodes.

 

[LDC]

Have to admit Im not sure what is loaded and dramatic about it
Poland military state + border with Belarus is a good example, only postwar Ukraine will be more so

The way you wrote it was 'NATO will be guarding the Ukraine Russian border/DMZ' which hasn't been discussed at all, and wasn't what those articles said that you posted. So it read like something you're entirely imagining.

 

[Wilf]

How will we ever know?

Allows him to walk round Glastonbury without having to talk to people.

 

[LDC]

Allows him to walk round Glastonbury without having to talk to people.

I really like his ageing Kevin and Perry emo skateboard look top left.

 

[nogojones]

 

[dilute micro]

Really don't know how Morawiecki thinks Wagner would be more dangerous under Putin.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Really don't know how Morawiecki thinks Wagner would be more dangerous under Putin.

Wagner were always under Putin, but the boss got ideas above his station.

 

[Yossarian]

View attachment 388608

Wow, just one dose of vaccine and his heart exploded with enough force to destroy an aircraft

 

[teqniq]

If many of the key figures in Wagner have died in this crash, to my mind it may possibly throw the whole Africa operation into chaos. Wagner has a presence in CAR, Libya, Sudan and Mali. It's unlikely that the Russian government are or were privy to everything that's going on in these places wrt to Wagner.

What Is Russia’s Wagner Group Doing in Africa?

Russia’s Wagner Group has intervened in the affairs of several African countries, providing military and security support while expanding Moscow’s influence across the continent.

www.cfr.org

 

[dilute micro]

Wagner were always under Putin, but the boss got ideas above his station.

True, but I think he's talking about direct control.?. I would think Putin, having been burned by a volatile mercenary army, would think twice about keeping them around. Nothing would be better for Ukraine than for Putin to be playing general, imo.

 

[MickiQ]

Wow, just one dose of vaccine and his heart exploded with enough force to destroy an aircraft

Delivering the vaccine via ground-to-air missile that's what I call a radical new approach to an innoculation program. They really don't give a shit about credibility do they?

 

[Wilf]

View attachment 388608

That reminds me, what does Gorgeous George have to say?

 

[moochedit]

That reminds me, what Gorgeous George have to say?

Nato's fault

 

[not-bono-ever]

If many of the key figures in Wagner have died in this crash, to my mind it may possibly throw the whole Africa operation into chaos. Wagner has a presence in CAR, Libya, Sudan and Mali. It's unlikely that the Russian government are or were privy to everything that's going on in these places wrt to Wagner.

What Is Russia’s Wagner Group Doing in Africa?

Russia’s Wagner Group has intervened in the affairs of several African countries, providing military and security support while expanding Moscow’s influence across the continent.

www.cfr.org

Just by the nature of the game, there might be an absence of paperwork. Not sure how good the Wagner internal audit team are though

 

[MickiQ]

That reminds me, what does Gorgeous George have to say?

Still on the subject of credibility I see

 

[Flavour]

will be very interesting to see what happens in Africa now, I am assuming Putin will install a new "Wagner leader" a bit in the vein of that Chechen TikToker and then let them run their game while making sure the loyalty to the Kremlin is always the most important underlying foundation. Putin won't want to let the Wagner network in Africa go, and I'm sure there are Wagner fighters in Africa who aren't great fans of Putin, but if a new Wagner leader comes in and tells them what the new rules are then they won't have much choice but to accept or defect.

 

[planetgeli]

Just by the nature of the game, there might be an absence of paperwork.

Though certainly no absence of paper money.

 

[Artaxerxes]

View attachment 388608

Heart attack cause him to fly into missiles