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Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

They'll receive more from other Leopard operators now, I'm sure.

Netherlands are pledging their 18 - Denmark, Norway, Spain Finland and Portugal have also got plenty between them
I was wondering if this announcement would herald the start of the rest of them contributing their own small-ish numbers to add to the pool. That whole 'everyone holding hands and crossing the road at the same time' thing that the germans were going on about the other day...
 
No. Not after likes just wanted to know if any of the war baby types here cared about what they are supporting.
Maybe it’s about what their opposing rather than what they’re supporting? A brutal invasion by a corrupt and authoritarian state with a history of taking bites out of neighbouring independent states is worth opposing, even if the invaded territory is similarly crooked.

Listen to what Russia itself is saying, that Ukraine doesn’t exist, that this is a holy war because of gay parades, that Ukrainians should be destroyed so they don’t produce any more children, mocking and laughing the families killed in Dnipro etc. It’s not hard to ‘pick a side’.
 
There's significant gossip that the US will announce this week that they are donating 30-50 M1A2 Abrams tanks.

The Leopard 'coalition' is the big mover here - there's a group of Leo2 users who have semi-publicly said they'll (collectively) send somewhere in the 150-250 range.

Timing is going to be the crunch point - when they get into Ukr hands, and when Ukr is ready to use them. Training, logistics, support etc... Early spring would be great, mid-spring would be okay, late spring is getting late, because the Russians will be mounting their own offensives by then....

Which are considered the better machines, Challenger 2, Leopard 2, or Abrams?
 
AmateurAgitator said:
Warsplaining
Are you a war, always talking over all those other 'special military operations' and going on at length about how theirs isn't really war but yours is? Constantly insisting that yours is the correct strategy and your cause is greatest? Yes you, stop warsplaining! It's only polite to let those lesser conflicts express their own truth in their own ways!


Yes, warsplaining. The shame of it.
 
TBF nothing gets rid of corruption like getting a big chunk of the population trained in the use of arms and long experience of fighting together against an enemy. If the country survives this, the big dividing line in their politics (and economy / business probably) for the next generation is going to be (especially for men) between those who stayed and fought and those who did neither. I am not sure where many oligarchs fit in such a space, or what opportunities for the sort of graft they are used to there will be afterwards.

Or the people who are now war hero's take over their slice of the pie, which I belive happen in Kosovo.
 
Which are considered the better machines, Challenger 2, Leopard 2, or Abrams?
I’m sure kebabking will have a great answer, but for Ukraine's purposes, whichever tanks are in plentiful supply, have plenty of spare parts knocking around, and repair/maintenance depots in close proximity with expertise on hand to support them.

That makes the Leopard 2 better by quite some margin.
 
Which are considered the better machines, Challenger 2, Leopard 2, or Abrams?

The one you can get where it needs to be, with trained crews and it's logistics sorted...

Both Chally and Abrams have formidable combat records - in the two Iraq wars Chally has a 300-0 kill record, it holds the record for the longest rang tank-on-tank kill - 5km - and the only Chally ever lost in combat was killed by another Chally in a friendly fire accident in Basra in 2003. The crew were killed.

Any of them are significantly more capable than any Russian tank they'll meet, not least because the extremely expensive components of their reactive armour systems won't have need flogged off and replaced with logs or bits of rubber....
 
I’m sure kebabking will have a great answer, but for Ukraine's purposes, whichever tanks are in plentiful supply, have plenty of spare parts knocking around, and repair/maintenance depots in close proximity with expertise on hand to support them.

That makes the Leopard 2 better by quite some margin.
All three of these are around 20 tonnes heavier than their Russian equivalents and I can't help wondering how they'll cope when things get proper boggy.
 
The one you can get where it needs to be, with trained crews and it's logistics sorted...

Both Chally and Abrams have formidable combat records - in the two Iraq wars Chally has a 300-0 kill record, it holds the record for the longest rang tank-on-tank kill - 5km - and the only Chally ever lost in combat was killed by another Chally in a friendly fire accident in Basra in 2003. The crew were killed.

Any of them are significantly more capable than any Russian tank they'll meet, not least because the extremely expensive components of their reactive armour systems won't have need flogged off and replaced with logs or bits of rubber....
If you read street without joy, by Bernard fall, he reports cases of how the Viet Minh, unable to destroy French tanks, simply fired rpg after rpg until they'd roasted the crews inside. The lesson being that there's more than one way to deal with a new weapon that you can't defeat by usual methods. I'd have thought any canny Russian major or colonel would be thinking of how the Iraqis and Afghans dealt with us armour, and how their approach might be channeled toward ieds or tank traps and ieds. After all, you'd expect this new armour to punch through here and there
 
Nothing works all of the time...

One of the Challys in Basra took 19 RPG hits - both basic and tandem charge tank killers - and a Milan ATGW. It was back in action 6 hours later...

Any western tank formation going up against a Russian tank formation is going to take casualties, that's simply what happens, you get caught by surprise, you don't read the terrain right, You've not slept in a week so you leave a hatch open, or leave the refuelling hose on the engine exhaust vent - all this stuff happens...
 
You know what would be a lovely birthday present for Volodmyr Zelenskyy ?

Biden to announce sending at least 150 Abrams, and every one else to send a minimum of one company's worth of MBTs and all the backroom "stuff" ...
[being a cynic has drawbacks at times !}
 
You know what would be a lovely birthday present for Volodmyr Zelenskyy ?

Biden to announce sending at least 150 Abrams, and every one else to send a minimum of one company's worth of MBTs and all the backroom "stuff" ...
[being a cynic has drawbacks at times !}
What would you propose for his birthday next year? It's a hell of a present but can't help thinking giving it to the Ukrainian state might be better given the furore over corruption in ukraine
 
We had some Ukrainian guests at Christmas dinner. One of their mothers has started believing the Russian propaganda. She is still back in East Ukraine. very easy to understand why that might be the case. keeping your head down, going along with it out of fear etc.
No doubt Russian propaganda or influencing has some reach everywhere but I think propaganda/influencing works best when those segments of its intended audience have doubt in the counter narrative that is offered. From what I understand to be the case despite many Ukraine citizens in the East speaking Russian, having family friends etc in Russia and in the annexed areas, and many having worked in Russia, the vast majority oppose the Russian invasion. However they also were the least likely to support Maiden, were represented by parties that have now been banned, and elected officials that do communicate to them in Russian are fined Some would have attended the Ukrainian Orthodox Church which is now being investigated by the Ukrainian authorities.The east has suffered from underdevelopment whilst having large mineral deposits and industry. So there is amongst elements of that section of Ukrainian society an ambiguity about Kyiv/Kiev . Whilst undoubtedly there is a feeling of better the devil you know this ambiguity isn't going to just disappear and often it is reinforced by anti east attitudes not just limited to the nationalist right but to wider more 'liberal areas of western Ukraine.

How that schism in Ukrainian civil society is going to be addressed especially in the annexed areas is a big question and I would suggest that there are many more voices in the battle to define what post Russian Ukraine should be than just those of 'de Russification'.

My Ukrainian neighbours , for example, are from the east and whilst obviously opposing the Russian invasion and Putin are not anti-Russian themselves but anti what they see as west Ukrainian nationalism including Bandera etc.
 
No doubt Russian propaganda or influencing has some reach everywhere but I think propaganda/influencing works best when those segments of its intended audience have doubt in the counter narrative that is offered. From what I understand to be the case despite many Ukraine citizens in the East speaking Russian, having family friends etc in Russia and in the annexed areas, and many having worked in Russia, the vast majority oppose the Russian invasion. However they also were the least likely to support Maiden, were represented by parties that have now been banned, and elected officials that do communicate to them in Russian are fined Some would have attended the Ukrainian Orthodox Church which is now being investigated by the Ukrainian authorities.The east has suffered from underdevelopment whilst having large mineral deposits and industry. So there is amongst elements of that section of Ukrainian society an ambiguity about Kyiv/Kiev . Whilst undoubtedly there is a feeling of better the devil you know this ambiguity isn't going to just disappear and often it is reinforced by anti east attitudes not just limited to the nationalist right but to wider more 'liberal areas of western Ukraine.

How that schism in Ukrainian civil society is going to be addressed especially in the annexed areas is a big question and I would suggest that there are many more voices in the battle to define what post Russian Ukraine should be than just those of 'de Russification'.

My Ukrainian neighbours , for example, are from the east and whilst obviously opposing the Russian invasion and Putin are not anti-Russian themselves but anti what they see as west Ukrainian nationalism including Bandera etc.
Happy days to come
 
Dragons teeth stop tanks, they were deployed in WW2 and still work. They must be made of solid, reinforced concrete and dug deep in to the groud. A shed-load of those laid down in WW2 are still out there in tip-top condition, e.g.

A1.JPG





Russia has been laying some down recently, half-height and not dug in to the ground and maybe won't be standing in 80 years time, in fact after 80 days they look like this...

A2.JPG
 
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What would you propose for his birthday next year? It's a hell of a present but can't help thinking giving it to the Ukrainian state might be better given the furore over corruption in ukraine
I didn't say giving him personally all those tanks - I meant suppling the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

Celebrating returning Crimea to full Ukrainian control ... what else ?
 
Dragons teeth stop tanks, they were deployed in WW2 and still work. They must be made of solid, reinforced concrete and dug deep in to the group. A shed-load of those laid down in WW2 are still out there in tip-top condition, e.g.

View attachment 360775





Russia has been laying some down recently, half-height and not dug in to the ground and maybe won't be standing in 80 years time, in fact after 80 days they look like this...

View attachment 360776

Sov concrete...

Old story about the Cuban Missile Crisis. Kennedy could push Krushchov because he knew that Soviet missile silos were full of water, and that consequently the missiles fit only for scrap. Sub-standard concrete caused by construction quotas that bore no resemblance to the amount of cement available...

This time, it's probably been nicked...
 
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