I agree. And it never really has been.
Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24
- Thread starter kebabking
- Start date
Humberto
Relax
Think it's good for what it is. For the most part.
Nylock
I hate 'these days'...
I was wondering if this announcement would herald the start of the rest of them contributing their own small-ish numbers to add to the pool. That whole 'everyone holding hands and crossing the road at the same time' thing that the germans were going on about the other day...
Dogsauce
I’ve got Skol but I’m not a Scholar
Maybe it’s about what their opposing rather than what they’re supporting? A brutal invasion by a corrupt and authoritarian state with a history of taking bites out of neighbouring independent states is worth opposing, even if the invaded territory is similarly crooked.
Listen to what Russia itself is saying, that Ukraine doesn’t exist, that this is a holy war because of gay parades, that Ukrainians should be destroyed so they don’t produce any more children, mocking and laughing the families killed in Dnipro etc. It’s not hard to ‘pick a side’.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Your 69 posts on it suggest otherwise!
Atleast I'm not a warsplaining trot
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Which are considered the better machines, Challenger 2, Leopard 2, or Abrams?
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Are you a war, always talking over all those other 'special military operations' and going on at length about how theirs isn't really war but yours is? Constantly insisting that yours is the correct strategy and your cause is greatest? Yes you, stop warsplaining! It's only polite to let those lesser conflicts express their own truth in their own ways!AmateurAgitator said:
Yes, warsplaining. The shame of it.
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
Or the people who are now war hero's take over their slice of the pie, which I belive happen in Kosovo.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Be grateful for small mercies as my mum used to say
strung out
💩 🤣 🍆 💦 🧐 👻 🐝 🐈⬛
I’m sure kebabking will have a great answer, but for Ukraine's purposes, whichever tanks are in plentiful supply, have plenty of spare parts knocking around, and repair/maintenance depots in close proximity with expertise on hand to support them.
That makes the Leopard 2 better by quite some margin.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
The one you can get where it needs to be, with trained crews and it's logistics sorted...
Both Chally and Abrams have formidable combat records - in the two Iraq wars Chally has a 300-0 kill record, it holds the record for the longest rang tank-on-tank kill - 5km - and the only Chally ever lost in combat was killed by another Chally in a friendly fire accident in Basra in 2003. The crew were killed.
Any of them are significantly more capable than any Russian tank they'll meet, not least because the extremely expensive components of their reactive armour systems won't have need flogged off and replaced with logs or bits of rubber....
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
All three of these are around 20 tonnes heavier than their Russian equivalents and I can't help wondering how they'll cope when things get proper boggy.
strung out
💩 🤣 🍆 💦 🧐 👻 🐝 🐈⬛
Spain to announce supply of a number of Leopard 2 tanks: España se suma al plan europeo para entregar tanques Leopard a Ucrania
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
If you read street without joy, by Bernard fall, he reports cases of how the Viet Minh, unable to destroy French tanks, simply fired rpg after rpg until they'd roasted the crews inside. The lesson being that there's more than one way to deal with a new weapon that you can't defeat by usual methods. I'd have thought any canny Russian major or colonel would be thinking of how the Iraqis and Afghans dealt with us armour, and how their approach might be channeled toward ieds or tank traps and ieds. After all, you'd expect this new armour to punch through here and there
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
Nothing works all of the time...
One of the Challys in Basra took 19 RPG hits - both basic and tandem charge tank killers - and a Milan ATGW. It was back in action 6 hours later...
Any western tank formation going up against a Russian tank formation is going to take casualties, that's simply what happens, you get caught by surprise, you don't read the terrain right, You've not slept in a week so you leave a hatch open, or leave the refuelling hose on the engine exhaust vent - all this stuff happens...
One of the Challys in Basra took 19 RPG hits - both basic and tandem charge tank killers - and a Milan ATGW. It was back in action 6 hours later...
Any western tank formation going up against a Russian tank formation is going to take casualties, that's simply what happens, you get caught by surprise, you don't read the terrain right, You've not slept in a week so you leave a hatch open, or leave the refuelling hose on the engine exhaust vent - all this stuff happens...
I'm sure the vikings could manage that themselves.
StoneRoad
heckling from the back!
You know what would be a lovely birthday present for Volodmyr Zelenskyy ?
Biden to announce sending at least 150 Abrams, and every one else to send a minimum of one company's worth of MBTs and all the backroom "stuff" ...
[being a cynic has drawbacks at times !}
Biden to announce sending at least 150 Abrams, and every one else to send a minimum of one company's worth of MBTs and all the backroom "stuff" ...
[being a cynic has drawbacks at times !}
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
What would you propose for his birthday next year? It's a hell of a present but can't help thinking giving it to the Ukrainian state might be better given the furore over corruption in ukraine
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
No doubt Russian propaganda or influencing has some reach everywhere but I think propaganda/influencing works best when those segments of its intended audience have doubt in the counter narrative that is offered. From what I understand to be the case despite many Ukraine citizens in the East speaking Russian, having family friends etc in Russia and in the annexed areas, and many having worked in Russia, the vast majority oppose the Russian invasion. However they also were the least likely to support Maiden, were represented by parties that have now been banned, and elected officials that do communicate to them in Russian are fined Some would have attended the Ukrainian Orthodox Church which is now being investigated by the Ukrainian authorities.The east has suffered from underdevelopment whilst having large mineral deposits and industry. So there is amongst elements of that section of Ukrainian society an ambiguity about Kyiv/Kiev . Whilst undoubtedly there is a feeling of better the devil you know this ambiguity isn't going to just disappear and often it is reinforced by anti east attitudes not just limited to the nationalist right but to wider more 'liberal areas of western Ukraine.
How that schism in Ukrainian civil society is going to be addressed especially in the annexed areas is a big question and I would suggest that there are many more voices in the battle to define what post Russian Ukraine should be than just those of 'de Russification'.
My Ukrainian neighbours , for example, are from the east and whilst obviously opposing the Russian invasion and Putin are not anti-Russian themselves but anti what they see as west Ukrainian nationalism including Bandera etc.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Happy days to come
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Dragons teeth stop tanks, they were deployed in WW2 and still work. They must be made of solid, reinforced concrete and dug deep in to the groud. A shed-load of those laid down in WW2 are still out there in tip-top condition, e.g.
Russia has been laying some down recently, half-height and not dug in to the ground and maybe won't be standing in 80 years time, in fact after 80 days they look like this...
Russia has been laying some down recently, half-height and not dug in to the ground and maybe won't be standing in 80 years time, in fact after 80 days they look like this...
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A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
Nope, just an antisemitic political illiterate who discriminates against people living with disabilities.
StoneRoad
heckling from the back!
I didn't say giving him personally all those tanks - I meant suppling the Ukrainian Armed Forces.
Celebrating returning Crimea to full Ukrainian control ... what else ?
nogojones
spelling is overrated
You are casually reds ying to his yang. It's a shame you can't both be here at the same time
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
The matter - anti-matter collision would end the universeYou are casually reds ying to his yang. It's a shame you can't both be here at the same time
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
Sov concrete...
Old story about the Cuban Missile Crisis. Kennedy could push Krushchov because he knew that Soviet missile silos were full of water, and that consequently the missiles fit only for scrap. Sub-standard concrete caused by construction quotas that bore no resemblance to the amount of cement available...
This time, it's probably been nicked...
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
Finally the German government has confirmed they will supply tanks, and allow other counties to supply them too.
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