Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Pickman's model]

That's been all over the papers and is well documented all over the place. The whataboutery charge you throw about? Your post is a perfect example.
Ukrainians deserve a decent society to live in post war. Corruption reduces the chances of that and undermines the war effort as well.

yeh not to mention the way they've been introducing 'reforms' and market liberalisation that that.

 

[Pickman's model]

True, though that was gifted, for some strange reason. Not sure there's any evidence of western weapons being stolen - I understand they're being very tightly controlled, not least because Ukrainians want to actually win the war, which they can't do if they cream off weapons supplies.

oh right, if military stuff is given away that makes its appearance elsewhere in the world ok. you make out it's all ok but the americans are rather concerned see eg https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/11/01/us-weapons-ukraine-oversight/

 

[Yossarian]

A given? Do elucidate?

I mean that the existence of systemic corruption and Vladimir Putin's involvement and tolerance of it doesn't seem any more debatable than the fact that Moscow is the capital of Russia.

 

[CNT36]

yeh not to mention the way they've been introducing 'reforms' and market liberalisation that that.

I never mentioned that because I thought it a different issue. It is worth mentioning a connection in that reforms and market liberalisation often go hand in hand with anti-corruption campaigns.

 

[TopCat]

oh right, if military stuff is given away that makes its appearance elsewhere in the world ok. you make out it's all ok but the americans are rather concerned see eg https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/11/01/us-weapons-ukraine-oversight/

A quote from that.

Since late February’s invasion, which prompted the closing of the U.S. Embassy in Kyiv for several months, U.S. officials have been able to conduct just two in-person inspections of items requiring enhanced oversight at weapons depots where U.S. arms had been brought in from Poland.

 

[nogojones]

True, though that was gifted, for some strange reason. Not sure there's any evidence of western weapons being stolen - I understand they're being very tightly controlled, not least because Ukrainians want to actually win the war, which they can't do if they cream off weapons supplies.

Grenade launchers are pretty shady gifts to be honest and if it really was a "gift" then I've got quite a few follow up questions. But given that it was the chief pig who did the deed, I doubt any of those questions will get answered

 

[TopCat]

I mean that the existence of systemic corruption and Vladimir Putin's involvement and tolerance of it doesn't seem any more debatable than the fact that Moscow is the capital of Russia.

You assert it’s beyond debate? Is this based on evidence, anecdote or gut feeling?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Oh come off it. Oligarchs and Putin basically stole state infrastructure to profiteer from. Is this now disputed?

 

[Yossarian]

You assert it’s beyond debate? Is this based on evidence, anecdote or gut feeling?

I stand corrected, apparently the corruption of Putin's regime is debatable, for at least one person.

 

[Yossarian]

I guess in any war there's always going to be some cunts who'll try to cream some money off the top, I think the lesson with the news from Ukraine is "the government needs to step up anti-corruption efforts and remain transparent," not "there's no point sending aid to Ukraine."

 

[Supine]

I stand corrected, apparently the corruption of Putin's regime is debatable, for at least one person.

Two if you count Putin

 

[emanymton]

I guess in any war there's always going to be some cunts who'll try to cream some money off the top, I think the lesson with the news from Ukraine is "the government needs to step up anti-corruption efforts and remain transparent," not "there's no point sending aid to Ukraine."

The fact that it makes the news suggests they are at least trying to.

 

[Pickman's model]

I guess in any war there's always going to be some cunts who'll try to cream some money off the top, I think the lesson with the news from Ukraine is "the government needs to step up anti-corruption efforts and remain transparent," not "there's no point sending aid to Ukraine."

was the ukrainian government transparent before the invasion?

 

[emanymton]

Oh come off it. Oligarchs and Putin basically stole state infrastructure to profiteer from. Is this now disputed?

Didn't you know Putin is the champion of the working class and can do no wrong?

 

[TopCat]

Oh come off it. Oligarchs and Putin basically stole state infrastructure to profiteer from. Is this now disputed?

I am fairly aware of the theft during and after the demise of the Soviet Union. That was a while back though.

Anything related to the theft of supplies for troops? I would think they would get shot.

The Ukrainian corruption highlighted above involves the most senior of state officials. The fish rots from the head.

 

[Pickman's model]

was the ukrainian government transparent before the invasion?

further to this Corruption in Ukraine - Wikipedia which says corruption has been a significant issue in ukrainian society for many years

 

[TopCat]

Thankfully this exposure of rampant corruption will cause even the likes of Von De Leyan to wrinkle their nose at letting them into the EU.

 

[Pickman's model]

Thankfully this exposure of rampant corruption will cause even the likes of Von De Leyan to wrinkle their nose at letting them into the EU.

https://www.transparency.org.uk/publications/six-red-flags it's been going on for years

 

[TopCat]

Didn't you know Putin is the champion of the working class and can do no wrong?

What do you think about todays reports of rampant theft and corruption?

 

[Pickman's model]

What do you think about todays reports of rampant theft and corruption?

tip of the iceberg

 

[TopCat]

tip of the iceberg

It looks that way given the offices held by those sacked.

 

[emanymton]

I am fairly aware of the theft during and after the demise of the Soviet Union. That was a while back though.

Anything related to the theft of supplies for troops? I would think they would get shot.

The Ukrainian corruption highlighted above involves the most senior of state officials. The fish rots from the head.

You really are blind aren't you. Corruption from the very top is the bedrock of Putin's regime. Why do you think Russia has performed so badly in this war? If Ukranie is crippled with Corruption while Russia is a workers paradise or whatever you think it is?

Anyway you are going on ignore now ad you are doing my fucking head in with all you pro-russian bullshit. And yes you are pro-Russia. Don't try and claim otherwise.

 

[Raheem]

Two if you count Putin

It's not debatable for Putin. It's compulsory and you get thrown out of a window if you're not happy.

 

[TopCat]

You really are blind aren't you. Corruption from the very top is the bedrock of Putin's regime. Why do you think Russia has performed so badly in this war? If Ukranie is crippled with Corruption while Russia is a workers paradise or whatever you think it is?

Anyway you are going on ignore now ad you are doing my fucking head in with all you pro-russian bullshit. And yes you are pro-Russia. Don't try and claim otherwise.

Not a big loss. Bye.

 

[nogojones]

I am fairly aware of the theft during and after the demise of the Soviet Union. That was a while back though.

Anything related to the theft of supplies for troops? I would think they would get shot.

The Ukrainian corruption highlighted above involves the most senior of state officials. The fish rots from the head.

I think there is quite a bit of evidence to suggest that corruption within the Russian armed forces is through the roof. From brigades having vastly over inflated numbers so that the CO's can pocket the wages, to troops being sent into Ukraine with rations that had a use by date back in the soviet era (if they were lucky enough to even receive a ration pack).

It's hard to quanitfy the levels of corruption in each country, but I'd be willing to accept that over the last couple of years Ukraine has made some attempts to clean their act up (It will be a pretty big sticking point of them successfully getting into the EU), whilst in Russia it seems like its hard-wired into the state, to the point of it severely impacting on their ability to conduct what should have been a roll-over of Ukraine for the worlds second largest army .

 

[AmateurAgitator]

Do you genuinely think those things (or similar) aren't happening in Russia?

Two wrongs don't make a right

 

[Pickman's model]

You really are blind aren't you. Corruption from the very top is the bedrock of Putin's regime. Why do you think Russia has performed so badly in this war? If Ukranie is crippled with Corruption while Russia is a workers paradise or whatever you think it is?

Anyway you are going on ignore now ad you are doing my fucking head in with all you pro-russian bullshit. And yes you are pro-Russia. Don't try and claim otherwise.

they're both riddled with corruption. yet the ukrainians are (obviously) doing rather better than the russians in the war - although not so much better that an end is in sight. i wouldn't adduce corruption as the main issue causing russia's poor performance, i'd look more at the russian military culture, the rigid hierarchy, the way this prevents experimentation - that what has worked for eg the americans in the past, where now and again innovation has been encouraged and initiative valued, doesn't appear in the russian culture at all. if you look at the recent war between armenia and azerbaijan, that shows the conflict that's playing out here again between old ways of doing war and new ones - innovative use of the drones and so on. it's not squeaky clean ukraine v corrupt russia, that's an oversimplification too far

 

[Pickman's model]

I think there is quite a bit of evidence to suggest that corruption within the Russian armed forces is through the roof. From brigades having vastly over inflated numbers so that the CO's can pocket the wages, to troops being sent into Ukraine with rations that had a use by date back in the soviet era (if they were lucky enough to even receive a ration pack).

It's hard to quanitfy the levels of corruption in each country, but I'd be willing to accept that over the last couple of years Ukraine has made some attempts to clean their act up (It will be a pretty big sticking point of them successfully getting into the EU), whilst in Russia it seems like its hard-wired into the state, to the point of it severely impacting on their ability to conduct what should have been a roll-over of Ukraine for the worlds second largest army .

er again i'd point you to armenia v azerbaijan, and look which side of that russia was backing: and which side lost. i think it's more that russia had only one army, for show, when it should have had the two that larteguy describes:

“I'd like to have two armies: one for display with lovely guns, tanks, little soldiers, staffs, distinguished and doddering Generals, and dear little regimental officers who would be deeply concerned over their General's bowel movements or their Colonel's piles, an army that would be shown for a modest fee on every fairground in the country. The other would be the real one, composed entirely of young enthusiasts in camouflage uniforms, who would not be put on display, but from whom impossible efforts would be demanded and to whom all sorts of tricks would be taught. That's the army in which I should like to fight.”​

​

 

[AmateurAgitator]

Will you be updating us with reports of Russian thievery and corruption too?

Isn't there an entire thread dedicated to the topic of Russian oligarchs and their dodgy dealings?

 

[Cid]

Two wrongs don't make a right

Read the context maybe?