A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
What else is Belgium for? French chocolate and German beer would have been just as nice.
Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24
- Thread starter kebabking
- Start date
What else is Belgium for? French chocolate and German beer would have been just as nice.
Why would neoliberal brothers in arms need a buffer when they could join together (and have)?
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
Trying to decide whether you think that's a good or a bad thing....
You keep mistaking me (trying to) understand geopolitics with supporting imperialist manoeuvres. It's pretty disconcerting.
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
<cough>
elbows
Well-Known Member
Not the only time I've heard the word maximalist used recently:
From Ukraine war: Poland missile strike reveals Nato divisions
My focus is often on talking about propaganda, but it means I've gone through long periods of not posting on this thread because I'd have ended up spending too much time criticising the ways that Ukraines propaganda goes over the top, and I really dont want to be criticising Ukraine continually in this war. I tried to restrict myself to mostly picking apart the most excessive nuclear fears propaganda, but since the BBC have made vague reference to the 'diplomatic' realities I felt the need to note this brief change of tone in our media.
gosub
~#
They needed somewhere to keep people who put mayonnaise on chips
Well you've actually said fuck all so <shrug>
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
Only if you're an imbecile.
If you think that Ireland is, and should be, a sovereign state who'se economic, political, diplomatic and military policies and choices should be made by it's people through their chosen system of government, regardless of the huffing and puffing of a former imperial power, you've got to come up with some pretty special arguments to suggest why the same should not apply to Ukraine.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
All this talk of Russia, Ukraine, NATO. We go on as if these institutions had personalities, desires, thoughts, emotions. They don't. Their leaders do. Being humans and individuals. Putin is not Russia. He may think he is. He's just the usual run of the mill psychopathic tyrant. Nothing he does, or orders to be done, needs to happen. It's down to him, those around him and the vicious authoritarian organisations that they run.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Which reminds me to revisit Anne Morelli in Principes élémentaires de propagande de guerre
- We do not want war.
- The opposite party alone is guilty of war.
- The enemy is inherently evil and resembles the devil.
- We defend a noble cause, not our own interests.
- The enemy commits atrocities on purpose; our mishaps are involuntary.
- The enemy uses forbidden weapons.
- We suffer small losses, those of the enemy are enormous.
- Recognized artists and intellectuals back our cause.
- Our cause is sacred.
- All who doubt our propaganda are traitors
No idea why you can't understand this.
To be clear: I think that as a sovereign state that Ukraine should be left to self determine.
But we weren't discussing what I think. We were discussing what Russia thinks.
elbows
Well-Known Member
I dont think thats an easy subject to talk about during an invasion and war. In theory we should be able to look at what makes the regimes in countries act the way they do, and what factors have brought us to this situation. Analysts certainly do that, and they cant do their jobs properly if they ignore history, 'security concerns' and the rationales that prevail in former 'great powers'. But if we as individuals do that on threads like this one then people are liable to see it as apologism for Putins warmongering, as some kind of justification for the war. War is too horrible and deadly to expect people to step back and judge things in a more dispassionate, abstract way that acknowledges the grand chessboard shit that lies behind some of the thought processes of those in power. People prefer the 'Putin is mad' angles even if they are a really poor explanations for the decision making of the Russian state.
If this war wasnt happening and we could discuss things in a more generalised manner, then it would be more likely that people could acknowledge that many countries come up with all sorts of red lines when it comes to the political & military alignment choices that countries which border them make. And there were certainly no end of examples of western powers using the alignment choices that other nations governments made as justification for regime change and war in the 20th century. There are all sorts of hypothetical situations which we could imagine the UK being in which would cause the UK to start sabre rattling if our neighbours started going in certain directions. But even in the absence of a war and much death being in progress, such arguments would still cause discomfort if the parallels were pointed out too bluntly, and crude forms of exceptionalism would be expected to be resorted to.
If this war wasnt happening and we could discuss things in a more generalised manner, then it would be more likely that people could acknowledge that many countries come up with all sorts of red lines when it comes to the political & military alignment choices that countries which border them make. And there were certainly no end of examples of western powers using the alignment choices that other nations governments made as justification for regime change and war in the 20th century. There are all sorts of hypothetical situations which we could imagine the UK being in which would cause the UK to start sabre rattling if our neighbours started going in certain directions. But even in the absence of a war and much death being in progress, such arguments would still cause discomfort if the parallels were pointed out too bluntly, and crude forms of exceptionalism would be expected to be resorted to.
Well that was what I was after. Without people losing their shit over it.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
Guernsey, Luxembourg.
WouldBe
Dislicksick
Don't think so. One of the things Putin was moaning about before this started was the idea of NATO missile shield systems being deployed on his borders.also is Poland not cover by an American missile shield system
Whatever the cause of the missile explosion in Poland it looks more likely that missile defence systems will be deployed now.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Well that was what I was after. Without people losing their shit over it.
Well you wont get it, you'l get people looking to form a conclusion about 'whose side you are really on' instead. This phenomenon is part of war, and forums like u75 have never been immune from it.
Never mind if the resorting to exceptionalism I referred to in my previous post can actually be used to prove the point that these sorts of factors are a real part of the picture and decision making. Never mind that we demand certain countries accept things that would never be accepted here. Never mind any of the detail, the detail is uncomfortable, retreat to a comfort zone where these details can be dismissed on the basis that the allegiances of the person saying them can be called into question. A comfort zone that does have some flavour of vaguely plausible truth to it due to the baggage left over from witnessing all the shit apologists for crap regimes of the 20th century, such as anti-imperialists whose black and white thinking meant they werent really anti-imperialists at all, just against one flavour of imperialism, tribal snorefare.
I think you're probably right. I'm wanting removed analysis where I'm being dragged into a football match. In terms of imperialism my position has always been a pox on both of their houses. I don't support NATO or Russia but I do see Russia as an Imperialist Aggressor but it's mad to claim it has been in no way provoked by Western policies following the 90s.
And if the USSR hadn't expanded westwards, those countries might not have felt the need to.
...We could be here a while.
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Ax^
Silly Rabbit
pox on both their house but its Natos fault the Putins Russia that are still bombing civilians to ensure the view of world leaders
bloody Western imperialists ...
The existence of the USSR can't be ignored in this. But I wouldn't bother exploring it if I were you.
Good job no one's claiming that then. I mean there's a couple of posts about it here and there you know? Including by me. See RD#s threads...
I'm glad it aged badly.
I'm discussing what has literally just happened. Not somebody else.
Raheem
Well-Known Member
So you don't think anyone anywhere is to blame for any of it?
WouldBe
Dislicksick
If Putin wanted a neutral country between Russia and NATO perhaps he shouldn't have invaded Ukraine and tried to annexe it.
WouldBe
Dislicksick
Would have been better if she'd dropped him on his head from a great height.
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