Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[friedaweed]

So basically on day 266 of the war in Ukraine we have learnt that some folk are dicks, some folk have nuances, and waving your willy is still more important than discussing the facts.

Sort it owt lads

 

[kebabking]

How is asking for their views about me? It's a discussion forum, they're ripping the piss so I want to know what they think.

You could read the bits where people have already given their views?

If you can't be arsed reading what's already been written why should anyone make any effort on your behalf?

 

[Ax^]

Maybe you could help them out?

seeming as you made this all about you


what was that thread that made you flounce in the first place

 

[Magnus McGinty]

You could read the bits where people have already given their views?

If you can't be arsed reading what's already been written why should anyone make any effort on your behalf?

Writing a few sentences must be such a strain on a message forum. For what it's worth I think you probably do have well thought out views on this. But I'm asking the giggling monkeys.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

seeming as you made this all about you


what was that thread that made you flounce in the first place

I had a barney with someone and took a break. No idea what that has to do with you blowing hot air all over this thread.

 

[xenon]

I said "It could be argued".
If you think it couldn't then good for you. But I'd be interested to hear your views on the causes of the conflict rather than childish snipes but I'm guessing you don't have anything.,

Your guess is wrong. I've said what I think several times. Nato, the West undoubtably made mistakes after the break up of the USSR and chaos of the 90s. leaving Russia to it, thinking it would emerge as a liberal democracy, given enough painful economic reform, just shaking heads at the gangster capitlism and corruption. Conditions which set the scene for Putin to come to power. As is well documented. That chaos deeply effected Putin's attitude to strenthening Russia, to making it a world power, 1st tier international player. You can read about his idiology, how it has developed, magping bits from Russian thinkers and culture, the state's primacy over the individual, Putin the strongman, father, statesman etc. he is not the most extreme of the nationalists and has to fend off those further to the right tham himself.

But invading Ukraine was a choice. Nato was never a threat post Soviet era. If Ukraine looked westward to the EU maybe Russia should have offered something better than a necrotic economy, more cooruption and authoriterianism.

 

[Ax^]

I had a barney with someone and took a break. No idea what that has to do with you blowing hot air all over this thread.

we both ponder the same idea upon the other

 

[The39thStep]

I think you're probably right. I'm wanting removed analysis where I'm being dragged into a football match. In terms of imperialism my position has always been a pox on both of their houses. I don't support NATO or Russia but I do see Russia as an Imperialist Aggressor but it's mad to claim it has been in no way provoked by Western policies following the 90s.

'The people brought up on mass sports (where they sit and watch without taking part) look to the war for a similar show'.

Mass Observation 1940

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Your guess is wrong. I've said what I think several times. Nato, the West undoubtably made mistakes after the break up of the USSR and chaos of the 90s. leaving Russia to it, thinking it would emerge as a liberal democracy, given enough painful economic reform, just shaking heads at the gangster capitlism and corruption. Conditions which set the scene for Putin to come to power. As is well documented. That chaos deeply effected Putin's attitude to strenthening Russia, to making it a world power, 1st tier international player. You can read about his idiology, how it has developed, magping bits from Russian thinkers and culture, the state's primacy over the individual, Putin the strongman, father, statesman etc. he is not the most extreme of the nationalists and has to fend off those further to the right tham himself.

But invading Ukraine was a choice. Nato was never a threat post Soviet era. If Ukraine looked westward to the EU maybe Russia should have offered something better than a necrotic economy, more cooruption and authoriterianism.

I agree it's complex (politics is) and other things are at play but I disagree that NATO isn't seen as a threat to Putin (or Russia) even if it isn't.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

'The people brought up on mass sports (where they sit and watch without taking part) look to the war for a similar show'.

Mass Observation 1940

Interesting quote. I'll check that out.

 

[Ax^]

'The people brought up on mass sports (where they sit and watch without taking part) look to the war for a similar show'.

Mass Observation 1940

i do hope you are not a football fan

 

[Supine]

Writing a few sentences must be such a strain on a message forum. For what it's worth I think you probably do have well thought out views on this. But I'm asking the giggling monkeys.

All views expressed 500 pages ago. A few wrong’uns and the rest not liking war but supporting ukraine.

 

[The39thStep]

I have no idea about the authors motive

 

[Pickman's model]

Writing a few sentences must be such a strain on a message forum. For what it's worth I think you probably do have well thought out views on this. But I'm asking the giggling monkeys.

The only creatures dafter than the giggling monkeys are the fools who ask them for knowledge

 

[Pickman's model]

I have no idea about the authors motive

Yeh this could be as so many people said a turning point in the war

 

[Magnus McGinty]

The only creatures dafter than the giggling monkeys are the fools who ask them for knowledge

I never said I expected any.

 

[CNT36]

Nato, the West undoubtably made mistakes after the break up of the USSR and chaos of the 90s. leaving Russia to it, thinking it would emerge as a liberal democracy, given enough painful economic reform, just shaking heads at the gangster capitlism and corruption.

Good post. However I think the word mistakes is doing a lot of work there. Was Russia really left to it? Was the painful economic reform really so Russia would emerge as a Liberal democracy?
NATO may never have been a threat post soviet era. You could argue the toss over this but at the very least certain actions by NATO states will have appeared threatening. America under Bush such as (legally) withdrawing from the ABM treaty. In that context alongside the factors you describe this may offer a partial explanation but not justification for some of Putin's actions. This doesn't make invading Ukraine and all the horrors that followed any less of a choice.

 

[Yossarian]

Yeh this could be as so many people said a turning point in the war

Most likely outcome seems to be better air defenses for Ukraine, which could indeed mark a turning point - Zelensky seems to have backed away from outright denial.

The president also repeated calls by his national security chief, Oleksiy Danilov, for Ukrainian investigators to be given access to the crash site. “If, God forbid, some [missile] debris killed these people, we have to apologise,” he said. “But, sorry, first [I want] an investigation, access, the data you have — we want to have this.”

 

[frogwoman]

Are there a lot nationalists in Europe itching for their countries to get involved?

The Polish government would come under enormous pressure from their own voter base and from the public as a whole to mount some sort of response if it was shown to be a Russian missile, many people in Poland are properly anti Russian to put it mildly. It's probably a Ukrainian missile fired by accident tbh but not beyond the realms of possibility that they are (sensibly) trying to de escalate it before the facts are properly known.

 

[frogwoman]

Most likely outcome seems to be better air defenses for Ukraine, which could indeed mark a turning point - Zelensky seems to have backed away from outright denial.

The president also repeated calls by his national security chief, Oleksiy Danilov, for Ukrainian investigators to be given access to the crash site. “If, God forbid, some [missile] debris killed these people, we have to apologise,” he said. “But, sorry, first [I want] an investigation, access, the data you have — we want to have this.”

Better air defences seem like a good idea either way. The longer this goes on the more likely it is these things are going to happen.

 

[Leighsw2]

Apart from around 750 UK fascists, and in Northern Ireland IRA members, those in internment camps in 1940 were 'aliens' from Italy , German, Czech, , Belgium and Holland . These included those fleeing the war, anti fascists as well as sympathisers and members of nazi fascist organisations. Thousands were sent to Canada to be interned and in 1940 the Arandora Star carrying internees was torpedoed and sunk to the west of Ireland.

Despite the fact that the UK is not at war, and in any case maomao wouldnt have fitted the criteria for internment in 1940, I wouldn't want this information to unnecessarily dampen your obvious enthusiasm for the principle of internment for those posting up views that you disagree with on an internet board.

Haha, well done for your Wikipedia research. Yes, they interned a whole lot of people they shouldn't have done (most of whom were subsequently released), but they also interned all the right people (literally 'right' including Oswald Mosley and assorted BUF types.) Meanwhile, over in France, those sort of people arranged a capitulation to Hitler, the formation of the Vichy regime and then a regime of collaboration that included deporting thousands of French Jews to extermination camps. So I thank god for internment as it helped to save our country from the fifth columnist and defeatist elements who wanted us to capitulate to Hitler.

As for maomao he's confirmed that he wouldn't have fought against Fascism in the Second World War (ie. he wanted other people to fight and die for his freedom). What about you?

 

[Leighsw2]

Before anyone calls for me to be interred, ....

Triggered. Putin-bot.

 

[Leighsw2]

I would have done time as a conscientious objector in both world wars had I been around.

Why am I totally unsurprised that you wouldn't have fought against Fascism? But no doubt happy to enjoy your freedom that other people died for.

 

[frogwoman]

A worrying lesson from the Polish missile tragedy

Yesterday's Polish missile incident became at once a litmus test of national attitudes and a reminder of the wider dangers of the war in Ukraine.

www.spectator.co.uk

 

[frogwoman]

There's been a couple of posters now with London place names in their names with odd views on Russia.

 

[Ĝasper]

The Polish government would come under enormous pressure from their own voter base and from the public as a whole to mount some sort of response if it was shown to be a Russian missile, many people in Poland are properly anti Russian to put it mildly. It's probably a Ukrainian missile fired by accident tbh but not beyond the realms of possibility that they are (sensibly) trying to de escalate it before the facts are properly known.

Yep. A lot of people criticising Zelensky for contradicting Poland and NATO. Well of course there's a likelihood that he's the one telling the truth, and theyre lying to de escalate. If that's the case, bit of a slap in the face.

 

[elbows]

If authorities have already established that its from an S-300 system then it becomes trivial to rule out Russia very quickly because:

Russia's closest point to the blast site in Poland is about 580km (360 miles) away, far further than the range of the S-300 system which experts say is around 90km (56 miles).

From Ukraine war: What happened in Poland missile blast?

Unless further twists to the story emerge I dont have any strong reason to doubt that it was Ukraine or to spend much time considering these other theories recently floated on this thread. Especially because there is no point focussing on reasons other countries might lie to de-escalate unless you then also factor in the different sort of damage such a lie would then cause.

 

[Raheem]

If authorities have already established that its from an S-300 system then it becomes trivial to rule out Russia very quickly

Almost true: fairly unlikely scenario that it was fired from Belarus.

(Also: We have little idea what they have established.)

 

[elbows]

Almost true: fairly unlikely scenario that it was fired from Belarus.

(Also: We have little idea what they have established.)

The BBC article has a map which shows Belarus is also further away than the stated range of that missile system.

I used the word if in order to indicate that I dont know what they know. But it would certainly explain how a conclusion could be drawn rather quickly if that form of missile was established to have been the source of the explosion.

Its also no surprise that Ukraine might take a little time to publicly accept the conclusion that the missile came from their operations.

 

[Raheem]

The BBC article has a map which shows Belarus is also further away than the stated range of that missile system.

I saw a map where there's a tiny bit of Belarus just in range. I don't think it at all likely that it was a SAM fired from Belarus, in any case.