Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[TopCat]

Perhaps some people are more able to see beyond the statecraft and appreciate the message.

It probably helps if they're not coming to it with a preconceived notion that the Russian position is, per se, a valid one.

I don’t have that position. Many will be ambivalent at best and then what when the increasingly bills bite hard? Do you envisage growing support for the war or diminishing support or something else?

 

[TopCat]

Very well I would imagine. I would think that about 85% of Europeans would think to themselves 'She's got a point there, thank god we aren't facing an invasion by a brutal kleptocratic dictatorship with no regard for human rights."

That’s interesting, 85 percent support? Is it that high? Interested in any polling?

 

[existentialist]

I don’t have that position. Many will be ambivalent at best and then what when the increasingly bills bite hard? Do you envisage growing support for the war or diminishing support or something else?

I think that it will inevitably diminish, especially if lots of people are ignoring the humanitarian issues (per Mrs Zelenskyy) and believing the narrative that the energy bills problem is somehow Ukraine's fault. Aided and abetted by people who seem determined to push a pro-Russian narrative

 

[A380]

That’s interesting, 85 percent support? Is it that high? Interested in any polling?

What part of "I Imagine': did you not understand?

 

[bluescreen]

I think that it will inevitably diminish, especially if lots of people are ignoring the humanitarian issues (per Mrs Zelenskyy) and believing the narrative that the energy bills problem is somehow Ukraine's fault. Aided and abetted by people who seem determined to push a pro-Russian narrative

Yes, those pesky Ukrainians! If only they'd welcomed Uncle Vlad with open arms like they were supposed to none of us would be in this mess.

 

[TopCat]

What part of "I Imagine': did you not understand?

I thought it a figure of speech perhaps based in some way on knowledge of the numbers.

 

[A380]

Mind you I also imagine that in Topcat's world plucky Putin lives in a simple two bedroom workers apartment in the Moscow suburbs where he listens to Russian folk music and solves chess problems as he plans his defiant defence against the evils of NATO

 

[A380]

I thought it a figure of speech perhaps based in some way on knowledge of the numbers.

No you didn't.

 

[TopCat]

Mind you I also imagine that in Topcat's world plucky Putin lives in a simple two bedroom workers apartment in the Moscow suburbs where he listens to Russian folk music and solves chess problems as he plans his defiant defence against the evils of NATO

Your imagination is fevered.

 

[TopCat]

No you didn't.

I really did.

 

[andysays]

My take was more, on the day the gas was shut off she said, stop moaning.

It came across a bit like that to me too, as dismissive of the scale of the issue which will mean that there will no doubt be literal casualties here in Britain over the coming winter, it's not just a case of people having to count their pennies.

But maybe it's worth pointing out that her comment appears to have been a response to a question from Kuenssberg

Mrs Zelenska was asked what message she had for British people who are facing soaring energy bills in part due to Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the impact that has had on global gas and oil prices. "I understand the situation is very tough. But let me recall that at the time of the Covid-19 epidemic, and it's still with us, when there were price hikes, Ukraine was affected as well. The prices are going up in Ukraine as well. But in addition our people get killed. So when you start counting pennies on your bank account or in your pocket, we do the same and count our casualties," she said.

 

[TopCat]

It came across a bit like that to me too, as dismissive of the scale of the issue which will mean that there will no doubt be literal casualties here in Britain over the coming winter, it's not just a case of people having to count their pennies.

But maybe it's worth pointing out that her comment appears to have been a response to a question from Kuenssberg

Yeah it’s part of a bigger interview and not fully available yet. The BBC quoting bits to pump the forthcoming programme.

 

[kabbes]

People are more complex than to just say, “My bills are higher, so Ukraine should give up.” I think their reaction will be more along the lines of, “We must make sure we are never dependent on Russia again.” It will cement Russia’s position as a pariah state, while the rest of the world suffers through transition and eventually moves on.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah it’s part of a bigger interview and not fully available yet. The BBC quoting bits to pump the forthcoming programme.

Unless it has Prince Andrew being interviewed on it it will be a disappointment

 

[andysays]

I think that her point is simply, “Fuck Russia”

If there is anything more subtle, it is, “Don’t blame us for this. We’re not the ones fucking things up. Fuck Russia.”

That may be the main point, but there is also criticism of "the West"

Olena Zelenska told Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg that if support for Ukraine was strong the crisis would be shorter.

 

[existentialist]

It came across a bit like that to me too, as dismissive of the scale of the issue which will mean that there will no doubt be literal casualties here in Britain over the coming winter, it's not just a case of people having to count their pennies.

But maybe it's worth pointing out that her comment appears to have been a response to a question from Kuenssberg

Context counts for a lot.

 

[kabbes]

It came across a bit like that to me too, as dismissive of the scale of the issue which will mean that there will no doubt be literal casualties here in Britain over the coming winter, it's not just a case of people having to count their pennies.

But maybe it's worth pointing out that her comment appears to have been a response to a question from Kuenssberg

Sounds like “Fuck Russia” to me.

 

[TopCat]

People are more complex than to just say, “My bills are higher, so Ukraine should give up.” I think their reaction will be more along the lines of, “We must make sure we are never dependent on Russia again.” It will cement Russia’s position as a pariah state, while the rest of the world suffers through transition and eventually moves on.

Fair enough. Let’s come back to this in three months.

 

[Yossarian]

The BBC quotes her as saying:

"I understand the situation is very tough. But let me recall that at the time of the Covid-19 epidemic, and it's still with us, when there were price hikes, Ukraine was affected as well. The prices are going up in Ukraine as well. But in addition our people get killed. So when you start counting pennies on your bank account or in your pocket, we do the same and count our casualties."

Nothing there seems particularly incorrect, insensitive, or controversial.

 

[kabbes]

That may be the main point, but there is also criticism of "the West"

If support for Ukraine was strong, the crisis will/would indeed be shorter. That’s just factual. It’s not telling anybody to suck it up.

 

[existentialist]

Fair enough. Let’s come back to this in three months.

I'm not sure we need to wait that long. You only have to see the videos of locals being very hostile to Russian tourists careering around the place with Zs on their cars. Russia is well on the way to becoming a pariah state already.

 

[Pickman's model]

The BBC quotes her as saying:

"I understand the situation is very tough. But let me recall that at the time of the Covid-19 epidemic, and it's still with us, when there were price hikes, Ukraine was affected as well. The prices are going up in Ukraine as well. But in addition our people get killed. So when you start counting pennies on your bank account or in your pocket, we do the same and count our casualties."

Nothing there seems particularly incorrect, insensitive, or controversial.

The difference between the Ukrainian government and ours is the casualties the Ukrainians count are inflicted by the russians while the ones we've counted here have been inflicted by our government, eg on the benefits cut too much to bear thread and so many of the dead in the pandemic

 

[andysays]

If support for Ukraine was strong, the crisis will/would indeed be shorter. That’s just factual. It’s not telling anybody to suck it up.

We've been through some of this before, but what sort of additional/stronger support for Ukraine do you think will or would shorten the crisis?

And, perhaps just as important, to what extent are those in eg Britain who are experiencing the economic effects of the crisis (whether that's simply having to count their pennies or actually at risk of freezing and/or starving to death over the coming winter) responsible for the provision or otherwise of that support?

It is an unnecessarily dismissive comment, IMO, regardless of the line of questioning which produced it.

 

[emanymton]

It came across a bit like that to me too, as dismissive of the scale of the issue which will mean that there will no doubt be literal casualties here in Britain over the coming winter, it's not just a case of people having to count their pennies.

But maybe it's worth pointing out that her comment appears to have been a response to a question from Kuenssberg

Worth remembering as well that the soring bills and crises are in large part a result of choices made by our government.

 

[A380]

Your imagination is fevered.

Whereas your's is not:

Did you kill your mum and keep her for a bit? Is that how you know?...

 

[bluescreen]

Fair enough. Let’s come back to this in three months.

Yes. It's going to be a horror show here unless there's some kind of miracle.
Nightmare.

I still can't really fault Mme Zelenska for focusing on her own country's death toll.

 

[gosub]

People are more complex than to just say, “My bills are higher, so Ukraine should give up.” I think their reaction will be more along the lines of, “We must make sure we are never dependent on Russia again.” It will cement Russia’s position as a pariah state, while the rest of the world suffers through transition and eventually moves on.

Number one googled term in Germany last couple of weeks is firewood.

Personally though, I'd make sorting out the corrosion 'issues' on French nuclear a PDQ priority....that way next PM won't have to tell the public not to turn on their kettles (new or otherwise) after their favourite soap has finished on telly

 

[Yossarian]

I think "counting pennies" sounds a bit dismissive to British ears, Zelenska was not speaking English during the interview so I'm not sure her words were intended to have the same impact.

But interpreting it as "Wealthy Ukrainian First Lady, Speaking From Gilded Palace, Insults Freezing 'Penny-Pinching' Britons" would require a level of anti-Ukrainian bias so strong that Russian state media might think twice about that angle.

 

[A380]

Number one googled term in Germany last couple of weeks is firewood.

Personally though, I'd make sorting out the corrosion 'issues' on French nuclear a PDQ priority....that way next PM won't have to tell the public nrot to turn on their kettles (new or otherwise) after their favourite soap has finished on telly

One of the significant contributors to reducing carbon has been the advent of on demand telly. This means that National Grid rarely have to manage a 'TV Pickup' ramp in demand these days which means the supply is smoother which means less need to dispatch from gas peaking plant...

 

[A380]

I think "counting pennies" sounds a bit dismissive to British ears, Zelenska was not speaking English during the interview so I'm not sure her words were intended to have the same impact.

But interpreting it as "Wealthy Ukrainian First Lady, Speaking From Gilded Palace, Insults Freezing 'Penny-Pinching' Britons" would require a level of anti-Ukrainian bias so strong that Russian state media might think twice about that angle.

But Valiant Vlad needs all the solidarity he can get...