Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Wilf]

I don't think RU is firing cruise missiles for the purpose of killing a handful of civilians in a shopping mall perhaps you do, I think that is ridiculous!

I know, I know and Putin has been so careful to avoid civilian casualties thus far. The man's practically a saint.

 

[Pickman's model]

I know, I know and Putin has been so careful to avoid civilian casualties thus far. The man's practically a saint.

yeh wait till he really gets going

 

[krtek a houby]

I don't see the strikes ok on shopping malls as terrorism as we are being propogandised into believing

What do you see it them as?

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't think RU is firing cruise missiles for the purpose of killing a handful of civilians in a shopping mall perhaps you do, I think that is ridiculous!

i think the destruction of the rozetka mall was of perhaps more moment than the killing of fewer people than a moderately well planned mass shooting in the united states might number among its victims

 

[David Clapson]

Lumping missiles into another country from the safety of your own gaff isnt necessarily about destroying actual specific things- whats the greatest benefit of having this rescource?

Total War, innit? Similar to what Bomber Command did to Germany. Kill/dehouse the population, on the assumption that civilians contribute to the military effort. (E2a: not to denigrate the crews, who've never had the appreciation they deserve.)

Edit: if Ukraine has AA missiles which can hit cruise missiles, another benefit for Russia is that Ukaine has to site those missiles at civilian buildings, which means less protection for their military. (Also similar to Bomber Command's rationale. Germany took huge numbers of troops and guns away from the Russian front and put them in cities to defend against bombers.)

 

[SpookyFrank]

I don't think RU is firing cruise missiles for the purpose of killing a handful of civilians in a shopping mall perhaps you do, I think that is ridiculous!

Yeah they'd never do anything evil and insane just of the sake of it.

Unless you count invading Ukraine in the first place. And all the other evil, insane shit they do.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah they'd never do anything evil and insane just of the sake of it.

Unless you count invading Ukraine in the first place. And all the other evil, insane shit they do.

could we lose the mh perjoratives pls

 

[Pickman's model]

Total War, innit? Similar to what Bomber Command did to Germany. Kill/dehouse the population, on the assumption that civilians contribute to the military effort.

we are nowhere near total war, russia hasn't even mobilised yet

 

[xenon]

I find it hard...feel eyes rolling, to navigate the information about the war.
Following polar opposite sources ATM gives a sense that RU are winning by a country mile. Putinbot telegram channels are sharing very specific accounts of gains that get a begrudging acknowledgement in the UK media days later, which respecting the propaganda origin suggest a certain amount of truth.
UKR are in gradual retreat, the hi spec weapons NATO are supplying appear non existent. It looks like an artillery and trenches war that is slowly going in the Putin regimes favour.
I don't see the strikes ok on shopping malls as terrorism as we are being propogandised into believing, I think UKR are stashing the NATO kit in these places and RU informers, which are probably quite prevelent giving info where to strike, I suspect huge amounts of hi tech munitions are going up in these strikes, the UKR mil is reduced to hiding resources like the regime in Iraq during the invasion.
They appear shambolic and uncoordinated

Why would the defence forces be stashing / hiding high tech weapons in a shopping centre in Kyiv. Hundreds of KM from where they're needed the most.

Of course we're not getting the whole or an fully accurate picture. But posting your speculation based on Telegram posts by unamed interested parties aint helping.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Do you have any, erm, shall we say, well... evidence for this?

It's another tobyjug IC3D fact.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Total War, innit? Similar to what Bomber Command did to Germany. Kill/dehouse the population, on the assumption that civilians contribute to the military effort.

It’s fear. This is why missile data stuff is so readily disseminated by their owners. That near silent unexpected million quid missile strike has far greater value than the stuff it actually destroys

 

[maomao]

could we lose the mh perjoratives pls

The word 'insane' no longer has any medical significance.

 

[bluescreen]

I don't see the strikes ok on shopping malls as terrorism as we are being propogandised into believing, I think UKR are stashing the NATO kit in these places and RU informers, which are probably quite prevelent giving info where to strike, I suspect huge amounts of hi tech munitions are going up in these strikes, the UKR mil is reduced to hiding resources like the regime in Iraq during the invasion.
They appear shambolic and uncoordinated

To add to all the other objections noted above:
Supposing, for a moment, that you are right in your thinking, why do you suppose RU is telling people that this is a UKR false flag, rather than simply, er, telling the world that UKR is using a shopping mall as a human shield?

No, don't bother answering.

 

[xenon]

I don't think RU is firing cruise missiles for the purpose of killing a handful of civilians in a shopping mall perhaps you do, I think that is ridiculous!

Yeah. Rediculous.
They'd never bomb a maternity hospital either. Or a train station with civilians escaping the conflict. Or just flatten a town or 2. Or bomb a defunct nuclear power plant, a Jewish Holocaust memorial...

 

[Spandex]

There's a factory a few hundred meters north of the shopping centre. Best translation I can find for it is "factory of road machines".

Seems likely to me that the missle was aiming for that, missed and hit the shopping centre.

Of course Ukrainian sources are saying it was a deliberate targetting of civilians while Russian sources, as is their way, are saying about a dozen conflicting things just to confuse everybody.

 

[Pickman's model]

The word 'insane' no longer has any medical significance.

that's no bearing on the matter at hand whatsoever

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah. Rediculous.
They'd never bomb a maternity hospital either. Or a train station with civilians escaping the conflict. Or just flatten a town or 2. Or bomb a defunct nuclear power plant, a Jewish Holocaust memorial...

the americans have done, time and again, 1, probably 2, certainly 3 and haven't yet had the opportunity for four and five. so let's not hold this up as the russians are uniquely vicious or nasty, people our government cuddles up to would do and have done much the same

 

[David Clapson]

It’s fear.

Like rape and torture of civilians. It's supposed to demoralise, hastening Ukraine's acceptance of permanent territory loss.

 

[maomao]

that's no bearing on the matter at hand whatsoever

Of course it does. Or you'd avoid the words 'idiot' and 'imbecile' which in living memory were diagnostic terms for people with serious mental disabilities. It's just tiresome language policing.

 

[Pickman's model]

Of course it does. Or you'd avoid the words 'idiot' and 'imbecile' which in living memory were diagnostic terms for people with serious mental disabilities. It's just tiresome language policing.

I do avoid the words idiot and imbecile. And the pejorative nature of insane clear from its use in eg asylums for the insane in living memory.

 

[maomao]

I do avoid the words idiot and imbecile.

You've used the former today and the latter this year so the change must have happened this afternoon at the earliest.

 

[IC3D]

To add to all the other objections noted above:
Supposing, for a moment, that you are right in your thinking, why do you suppose RU is telling people that this is a UKR false flag, rather than simply, er, telling the world that UKR is using a shopping mall as a human shield?

No, don't bother answering.

The same reasons US mil covered up collateral damage for the home audience in Operation Enduring Freedom.

 

[Pickman's model]

You've used the former today and the latter this year so the change must have happened this afternoon at the earliest.

I said I avoid them not I never use them. I'm glad you mentioned it tho and I've amended the idiot to fool, and wish I could do the same about the imbecilic. Seems to me it's something really strongly ingrained in our language to use such terms which are often just throwaway expressions of exasperation but there are times I'd rather try and do something about it than let the same dreary themes run on and on.

 

[IC3D]

Do you have any, erm, shall we say, well... evidence for this?

The absence of evidence that RU are destroying weapons dumps or high value military targets in a country with no air defence says to me they are doing that successfully.

 

[gosub]

There's a factory a few hundred meters north of the shopping centre. Best translation I can find for it is "factory of road machines".

Seems likely to me that the missle was aiming for that, missed and hit the shopping centre.

Of course Ukrainian sources are saying it was a deliberate targetting of civilians while Russian sources, as is their way, are saying about a dozen conflicting things just to confuse everybody.

If a Ukrainian on a tractor is anything to go by Ukrainian on a steam roller is a serious threat

 

[Pickman's model]

The absence of evidence that RU are destroying weapons dumps or high value military targets in a country with no air defence says to me they are doing that successfully.

How many Russian aeroplanes and helicopters have the Ukrainians shot down?

 

[gosub]

How many Russian aeroplanes and helicopters have the Ukrainians shot down?

That's mostly anti air Tbf.

 

[Pickman's model]

That's mostly anti air Tbf.

That's a surprise, I thought you were ignoring me

 

[IC3D]

How many Russian aeroplanes and helicopters have the Ukrainians shot down?

Not enough and I'm sure if they were falling out of the sky and being towed away by tractors we'd know about it.

 

[Wilf]

The absence of evidence that RU are destroying weapons dumps or high value military targets in a country with no air defence says to me they are doing that successfully.

Right, well then, that's me convinced.