A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
Dictator who wants unlimited power and to harness the assets of the state to themselves and their immediate circle. Yep.
Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24
- Thread starter kebabking
- Start date
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
Gosh, so you are relishing the deaths of people who have died fighting for their country to get a cheap laugh on a message board and yet other people are blood thirsty warmongers?
Mmmm.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
The kindest interpretation I can make of his posts are that he's getting his shits and giggles from being deliberately contrarian about the whole thing.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
And there was me thinking it was because the gate to the cunt farm had been left open early this evening...
Raheem
Well-Known Member
You feel that maligns one of them?
JimW
支那暗杀团
In terms of their internal strongman rule does seem to be parallels though not aware of any overseas ambitions Franco had beyond existing colonies. He wasn't a nutter of the Hitler stripe, but brutal and pseudo religious like Putin.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Operation Solidarity – Horizontal volunteer organization in Ukraine.
operation-solidarity.org
Plenty of stuff to be done there. Unless you think it's all wrong and war mongering? Or people should resist but without any support from anyone. Or just support from non-State organisations. Or State support is OK. But not weapons. Or something else entirely?
Not really sure what your position is tbh, unless it's just throwing around insults with no actual decent political position?
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
. I did say "kindest interpretation"!
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
.
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
Flavour
hang the bankers
Owning the libs innit
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
There'll be a sexist meme next, but it isn't sexist because intellect....
I think you're being unfair.
Spanish Civil War analogies are taking the biscuit! History doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes.
Gorbachev set red lines about Nato expansion into Eastern Europe. The USA set the stage for it being an existential crisis.
USA are only willing to fight for Ukraine until the last dead Ukrainian. They'll bunker down in Poland and the Baltic states.
That people like RD2003 and TopCat, who are against imperialist war, get called appeasers or Putin apologists stinks. War is Hell.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
It's NATO's fault that he felt he had to compare himself to PtG. Obvs.
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
Err, Gorbachev & NATO agreed terms in respect of East Germany reuniting with West Germany, nothing was agreed beyond that, because no one was expecting the whole Soviet Union would start falling apart soon after.
I wish people wouldn't refer to 'NATO expansion' in light of the current Russian expansion plans, because unlike Russia, NATO never invaded the former Soviet republics in eastern Europe, as independent sovereign states they decided to join NATO as their best protection against Russian aggression. And, this year has proved they made the right choice.
That's sadly because France & Germany vetoed Ukraine's NATO membership in 2008, so they haven't got the same level of protection that Poland and the Baltic states enjoy.
Those two are complete clowns, they don't agree with the west supporting the Ukrainians in defending themselves against this Russian imperialist invasion, which basically implies they would be happy for Russia to do whatever they want, hence they come across as appeasers.
They bring nothing to the table beyond 'war is bad, therefore it needs to stop', proper student level of politics, they haven't not a single idea between them about how to end it, beyond it seems stopping support from the west, so Russia can bring it to an end quickly, and on their terms.
Yes it is, and in an ideal world Russia would never have started one, or at least would now give up on it and fuck off.
Sadly we don't live in some 'ideal student politics utopia', the Ukrainians are left with two choices - let Russia win, or fight back.
Without the expectation of the complete collapse of the Soviet Union, as you said.
So it's the European Union's fault?
I disagree.
Yes it is, and in an ideal world Russia would never have started one, or at least would now give up on it and fuck off.
Sadly we don't live in some 'ideal student politics utopia', the Ukrainians are left with two choices - let Russia win, or fight back.
Any alternative is 'ideal student politics utopia'? Whither idealism. What do you believe in?
Gorbachev's vision for a 'common European home'- archive, July 1989
Forty years ago, Mikhail Gorbachev told his East European allies that each should be free to pursue its own path within the Warsaw Treaty – a declaration that would set the stage for revolutions and the crumbling of the Communist bloc
Spandex
A crazy bulbous punchbag of sound
Cry a tear for Vladimir
Lovely bloke. Wouldn't hurt a fly. Only wants what's best for the ordinary Russian. Started out running a kitten sanctuary. He was forced to invade Ukraine by his neighbours clamouring to join NATO. And Jewish Nazis.
He didn't start as a Soviet KGB agent.
As deputy mayor of St Petersburg he didn't help the Tambov gang import heroin and fix dodgy deals for robber baron oligarchs.
He wasn't appointed as Yeltsin's successor giving immunity to Yeltsin for all the shit he'd got up to and overseen.
He had nothing whatsoever to do with the Mosow apartment bombings and the resultant Chechen war that sealed his position, the destruction of Grozny, the torture chambers, they were all for the good of the Chechens.
He didn't clamp down on free speech. Anna Politkovskaya shot herself. Litvenenko poisoned himself.
Georgia had to be invaded for its own good.
Everything is NATO's fault and poor Putin is the real victim in all of this.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
Cry a tear for Vladimir
Lovely bloke. Wouldn't hurt a fly. Only wants what's best for the ordinary Russian. Started out running a kitten sanctuary. He was forced to invade Ukraine by his neighbours clamouring to join NATO. And Jewish Nazis.
He didn't start as a Soviet KGB agent.
As deputy mayor of St Petersburg he didn't help the Tambov gang import heroin and fix dodgy deals for robber baron oligarchs.
He wasn't appointed as Yeltsin's successor giving immunity to Yeltsin for all the shit he'd got up to and overseen.
He had nothing whatsoever to do with the Mosow apartment bombings and the resultant Chechen war that sealed his position, the destruction of Grozny, the torture chambers, they were all for the good of the Chechens.
He didn't clamp down on free speech. Anna Politkovskaya shot herself. Litvenenko poisoned himself.
Georgia had to be invaded for its own good.
Everything is NATO's fault and poor Putin is the real victim in all of this.
I want to find someone who looks at me like TopCat and yield look at Putin.
My desire was to show you the innocence and purity of tyrants.Cry a tear for Vladimir
Lovely bloke. Wouldn't hurt a fly. Only wants what's best for the ordinary Russian. Started out running a kitten sanctuary. He was forced to invade Ukraine by his neighbours clamouring to join NATO. And Jewish Nazis.
He didn't start as a Soviet KGB agent.
As deputy mayor of St Petersburg he didn't help the Tambov gang import heroin and fix dodgy deals for robber baron oligarchs.
He wasn't appointed as Yeltsin's successor giving immunity to Yeltsin for all the shit he'd got up to and overseen.
He had nothing whatsoever to do with the Mosow apartment bombings and the resultant Chechen war that sealed his position, the destruction of Grozny, the torture chambers, they were all for the good of the Chechens.
He didn't clamp down on free speech. Anna Politkovskaya shot herself. Litvenenko poisoned himself.
Georgia had to be invaded for its own good.
Everything is NATO's fault and poor Putin is the real victim in all of this.
Everything happens in a vacuum and nothing has happened ever
Love you.
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Dystopiary
putting up a hook to hang my hopes upon
It's not just that - although they seem to be saying Ukrainians should capitulate somehow through "negotiations" with a far-right, mass-murdering bullshitter, but it's not clear what exactly this negotiations will entail cos they won't actually say - they just do fly-by sneery posts at anyone who sees it differently, accusing them of being war-enthusiasts who enjoy seeing many people killed, and loving state authorities.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
They've recruited enough during the invasion for their National Corps to now have SOF Azov Regiment in Kyiv and Kharkiv, Kraken, and 98th Battalion. Kraken is the one rumoured to have been involved in the shooting of the POWs early in the war.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
OK, I can agree with you that while (obviously) the situation in Ukraine isn't the same as anything that's happened before, lessons can be taken from history, and I agree that the rush and sometimes present tendency of some people to throw their previously held politics to the side in support of a war is something to be aware of. But when I was discussing this with someone I know who has a very firm NWBTCW position they referred me to a statement made by some communist group in 1944 that called for all workers across the world to unite and refuse the war, that capitalism and the ruling class of all sides was the real enemy etc. They were happy with it as a statement made in difficult circumstances but that still managed to refuse to take any sides in an imperialist war. But it was a statement made in 1944 that managed to not even mention the horrors of the death camps, Holocaust, etc. and plastered over all that with 'no imperialist war'. So I think it's very much also worth bearing in mind that one of the lessons of history in situations like this is the tendency of some small left wing groups and people to portray war as a simple confrontation between power blocks, with no deeper understanding of what else is going on alongside/underneath that. The 'campism' that people rightly get criticized for, just from a slightly different angle.
I'd be happy to bet everyone on here is 'against imperialist war' btw. And anyway, what is this being 'against imperialist war' you mean, and that lots of people say with no explanation? I'm not sure at all seeing this through such a dated lens is really that helpful at all, or at least not without some serious unpacking. What do you actually mean by this in terms of Ukraine? That it is solely a NATO/Ukraine against Russia battle of imperial powers? And even if you think there are elements of that within the current conflict, is the also no element of anything else contained with that? And is there no element of people defending themselves against invasion, death and occupation in the ways they see fit that's worthy of supporting? All wars are pretty much just the same thing is what plenty of lefties seem to think. No need to think too much about it, just shout "No imperialist war!" and be done with it.
"Ah, but they end up in alliances with the Ukrainian State, and take arms from NATO, and anyway look at Azov!" they cry. Well given pretty much all the political struggle that goes on here and in many countries involves compromises with States and other bodies, surely it's pretty fucked up to hold people in a life or death position to some purist standards we don't even hold ourselves to? Do you know how weird, lacking in solidarity and fucked up politically it looks to Ukrainian lefties of all shades that some here in the West just keep going on and on about Azov, in the same way the Russian State does?
"Well, they could resist in other ways!" they cry. I had a conversation with someone at the start of this who was very much against any armed resistance, and was of the opinion people should leave, or just ignore the invasion and occupation, and then start organizing the workers under the occupation and encouraging Russian military desertion etc. The first suggestion I'm not even going to give any time to as it's so fucked up, but the second is on some level fair enough and is something that could, is, and probably will be done. (But given we can't even manage to do that here really, seems a bit much sometimes to be telling people to do something we can't/don't even do under pretty easy conditions.) Some have then also then pointed to people doing demos against the occupation etc. in places like Kherson as illustrations that this is possible. And for sure it is, but there's a pretty big element of ignoring the things they are criticising other parts of the struggle that they don't agree with for (flying of Ukrainian flags, calling for NATO involvement, support for Ukrainian State, etc.) to paint that kind of thing as something done by entirely different people, with different politics, and better than the fighting just to back up there own dogmatic position.
But seeing that as something to do as part of the struggle, rather than something entirely separate and 'purer' than fighting as well strikes me as having similarities to a pacifist position rather than anything else. Not to mention the weirdness and fucked-up-ness of some people here in their safe houses and little groups here telling Ukrainians how to resist.
And about the risk of escalation that people keep mixing in with everything else... yeah for sure, but if you keep bringing that up then at least be honest and say something like you're scared of this escalating into something that impacts you and others, and rather than take that risk you want Ukraine to stop fighting and being supported to fight, and then they can suffer what that'll mean in the future, but at least you and everyone else won't be impacted. And that to me isn't a political position, but a position of fear and a throwing out of solidarity with people there. I mean whatever you want, but be honest about it.
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The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
nogojones
spelling is overrated
I get this position.
WWII is sold to us as a good against evil confrontation, with the allies only fighting to stop the evil of the death camps and fascism. Really though, it was just about empire, the retaining of it and the quest for it.
Some of the non-stalinist left back then held that NWBTCW stance, but still wanted to fight fascism and didn't believe that the British or American ruling classes leading the war really gave a fuck about fascism. They joined up and fought in the armed forces whilst still trying to agitate around class war. Post war it was these people who were part of the de-mob mutinies in North Africa and other places. I see the parallels of these people in the Ukrainian left that are currently organising and fighting.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
The latter was the WIL as I recall. The de mob mutinies also included activists from the Communist Party and Labour Party. There is a very interesting book on the experience of Communist Party members and their activity joining the armed forcesin WW2 called The Days of The Good Soldiers by Richard Kisch . Duncan Hallas who was a leading member of IS/SWP also took part in the mutinies.
A380
How do I change this 'custom title' thing then?
An excellent post. I’d disagree with drawing parallels between The NWBTCW line and pacifism though. Pacifism requires a great deal of personal sacrifice, including a willingness to give up your own life in order to abstain from violence against others. NWBTCW seems to be an adolescent fantasy that sees the fighting and death being conducted by stakhanovite worker soldiers ( preferably a long way away from the proponent) fighting mindless drones of top hatted capitalists.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
International Communist Party. Had to look it up mind, not sad enough to know that.
It's here Manifesto of the Communist Left to the proletarians of Europe - 1944
This bit made me laugh/despair, "Too many among you have made yourselves the auxiliaries of capitalism by participating in the partisans’ war, the most extreme expression of nationalism. Your enemies are neither the German soldier, nor the English or American soldier, but their capitalism which has led them to war, to killing, to death. Your enemy is your own capitalism, whether Laval or De Gaulle represents it. Your freedom is linked neither to the fate nor to the traditions of your ruling class, but to your independence as a proletarian class."
They're a Party like me having a beer with my cat is a party though, more like a small group. Reassuring to see they're saying the same thing about Ukraine all these years later....
INTERNATIONAL COMMUNIST PARTY - Home page
Marx, Lenin, the III International and the Communist Party of Italy 1921, the Italian Communist Left against the degeneration in Moscow, rejection of popular fronts; restoring the revolutionary doctrine and the party organ, in contact with the working class, outside the personalized politics and...
www.international-communist-party.org
Again, lol at this bit, "The proletarians have no homeland to defend!"
Well, yes some of them don't any more.
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