OK, I can agree with you that while (obviously) the situation in Ukraine isn't the same as anything that's happened before, lessons can be taken from history, and I agree that the rush and sometimes present tendency of some people to throw their previously held politics to the side in support of a war is something to be aware of. But when I was discussing this with someone I know who has a very firm NWBTCW position they referred me to a statement made by some communist group in 1944 that called for all workers across the world to unite and refuse the war, that capitalism and the ruling class of all sides was the real enemy etc. They were happy with it as a statement made in difficult circumstances but that still managed to refuse to take any sides in an imperialist war. But it was a statement made in 1944 that managed to not even mention the horrors of the death camps, Holocaust, etc. and plastered over all that with 'no imperialist war'. So I think it's very much bearing in mind that one of the lessons of history in situations like this is the tendency of some small left wing groups and people to portray war as a simple confrontation between power blocks, with no deeper understanding of what else is going on alongside/underneath that. The 'campism' that people rightly get criticized for, just from a slightly different angle.
I'd be happy to bet everyone on here is 'against imperialist war' btw. And anyway, what is this being 'against imperialist war' you mean, and that lots of people say with no explanation? I'm not sure at all seeing this through such a dated lens is really that helpful at all, or at least not without some serious unpacking. What do you actually mean by this in terms of Ukraine? That it is solely a NATO/Ukraine against Russia battle of imperial powers? And even if you think there are elements of that within the current conflict, is the also no element of anything else contained with that? And is there no element of people defending themselves against invasion, death and occupation in the ways they see fit that's worthy of supporting? All wars are pretty much just the same thing is what plenty of lefties seem to think. No need to think too much about it, just shout "No imperialist war!" and be done with it.
"Ah, but they end up in alliances with the Ukrainian State, and take arms from NATO, and anyway look at Azov!" they cry. Well given pretty much all the political struggle that goes on here and in many countries involves compromises with States and other bodies, surely it's pretty fucked up to hold people in a life or death position to some purist standards we don't even hold ourselves to? Do you know how weird, lacking in solidarity and fucked up politically it looks to Ukrainian lefties of all shades that some here in the West just keep going on and on about Azov, in the same way the Russian State does?
"Well, they could resist in other ways!" they cry. I had a conversation with someone at the start of this who was very much against any armed resistance, and was of the opinion people should leave, or just ignore the invasion and occupation, and then start organizing the workers under the occupation and encouraging Russian military desertion etc. The first suggestion I'm not even going to give any time to as it's so fucked up, but the second is on some level fair enough and is something that could, is, and probably will be done. (But given we can't even manage to do that here really, seems a bit much sometimes to be telling people to do something we can't/don't even do under pretty easy conditions.) Some have then also then pointed to people doing demos against the occupation etc. in places like Kherson as illustrations that this is possible. And for sure it is, but there's a pretty big element of ignoring the things they are criticising other parts of the struggle that they don't agree with for (flying of Ukrainian flags, calling for NATO involvement, support for Ukrainian State, etc.) to paint that kind of thing as something done by entirely different people, with different politics, and better than the fighting just to back up there own dogmatic position.
But seeing that as something to do as part of the struggle, rather than something entirely separate and 'purer' than fighting as well strikes me as having similarities to a pacifist position rather than anything else. Not to mention the weirdness and fucked-up-ness of some people here in their safe houses and little groups here telling Ukrainians how to resist.
And about the risk of escalation that people keep mixing in with everything else... yeah for sure, but if you keep bringing that up then at least be honest and say something like you're scared of this escalating into something that impacts you and others, and rather than take that risk you want Ukraine to stop fighting and being supported to fight, and then they can suffer what that'll mean in the future, but at least you and everyone else won't be impacted. And that to me isn't a political position, but a position of fear and a throwing out of solidarity with people there. I mean whatever you want, but be honest about it.
