Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[teqniq]

Heh. Fair play. Strapline is a little misleading though as whilst the sabotage is being coordinated by defectors/dissidents mainly in Poland it (obviously) takes people on the ground in Belarus to carry out the sabotage, many of whom have been caught. Seems to have been effective though:

Belarus defectors cripple Russian supply lines

 

[emanymton]

made the mistake of clicking on the comments on a Corbyn FB post calling for a full investigation of the atrocities and a ceasefire (similar to his Salisbury poisoning embarrassment) . Fuck me - Ive never been so disgusted at the willful stupidity of so many on "the left" - thank fuck for Urban 75. Its all "need to hear both sides/but nato/probably Azov did it/media are lying/ USA is keeping the war going for profit" ... vomit inducing

I've never been more greatful for Urban than during this and the covid.

Not just for being a place of mostly sane discussion and information but for helping me stay sensible.

 

[kebabking]

Grim stuff. Just appallingly grim.




The Ukrainian Ambassador to Lithuania has tweeted pictures that show a family murdered in their home. The pictures include children, one of them, a 3 year old girl, has injuries consistent with Rape.

My littlest one is doing an Easter Egg hunt with Beavers. I'm sat in the car crying.

 

[teqniq]

It is little surprise that they decided to do this:

Lithuania expels Russian ambassador over civilian deaths near Kyiv

Lithuania is expelling the Russian ambassador to the Baltic country after Ukraine accused Russian forces of killing civilians in the town of Bucha, the Lithuanian foreign ministry said on Monday.

www.reuters.com

 

[Artaxerxes]

Spoiler block dead bodies please.

 

[dilute micro]

The day Zelensky gives his speech at the UN can't come fast enough. They've got to win this.

 

[Flavour]

No posting gore ffs

 

[bimble]

Are those pictures going out on tv news and websites or just twitter? Saw the same this morning and I don’t know how people carry on with their normal lives after seeing them.

 

[NoXion]

Genocide might be arguable at least for now, but it seems pretty obvious that atrocities are being committed. I'm having a hard time finding the right words. Putin and his cronies deserve the worst of what's coming to them, but I'm also thinking of the politicians in this country who got into cosy relationships with oligarchs. I'm certainly inclined to remember the piles of dead bodies whenever I see that verminous filth Johnson open his disgusting face-hole again.

 

[keybored]

I'd just like to point out this is my most popular post ever. Thanks everyone.

Still underrated imo.

 

[NoXion]

Are those pictures going out on tv news and websites or just twitter? Saw the same this morning and I don’t know how people carry on with their normal lives after seeing them.

I went out for rolling papers earlier, and in the shop most of the papers' front pages showed something, nothing too shocking but it was pretty obvious in the photo that there were dead bodies in the street.

 

[Pickman's model]

Genocide might be arguable at least for now, but it seems pretty obvious that atrocities are being committed. I'm having a hard time finding the right words. Putin and his cronies deserve the worst of what's coming to them, but I'm also thinking of the politicians in this country who got into cosy relationships with oligarchs. I'm certainly inclined to remember the piles of dead bodies whenever I see that verminous filth Johnson open his disgusting face-hole again.

Yeh Johnson certainly been a great enabler for the Russian elite

 

[Dystopiary]

Anonymous have posted up personal data of 12,000 Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine. English language twitter seems very happy about that.

 

[Indeliblelink]

Sounds like Borodyanka, 23Km north-west of Bucha, could show more atrocities.

Zelenskiy says more than 300 people killed and tortured in Bucha – as it happened

This liveblog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

Situation in Borodyanka is worse than Bucha, prosecutor general says

Ukraine’s prosecutor general, Iryna Venediktova, said the town of Borodyanka will be the worst-hit by the Russian invasion in the Kyiv region.
Speaking on national television, Venediktova said the number of victims in Borodyanka, around 23km west of Bucha, would be higher than anywhere else, but did not provide further details.

She said:
We can speak of Kyiv region because yesterday we got access to these territories and are currently working in Irpin, Bucha, Vorzel.
In fact, the worst situation with civilian victims is in Borodyanka. I think we will speak of Borodyanka separately. .

 

[cupid_stunt]

There are only certain contexts and framing where the 'peace keeper' concept can be deployed. I cant say I've noticed anything that would enable such things soon, but maybe I've missed something? And I dont think the equation has fundamentally changed in terms of other nations getting involved with overt boots on the ground. A lot of Ukrainian forces have been focussed on the east throughout, and that will become even truer now that Russia has abandoned its plans in regards Kyiv etc.

Sorry, but this is bollocks, if some western countries want to send in 'peace keepers' they can define & frame that operation as they wish, they could reinforce the reason for going in by the fact they are protecting international investigators into war crimes, and even invite Russia to send their own investigators to assist in those efforts.

The west of Ukraine has never been under any credible threat by Russian ground forces, so there's no reason why that shouldn't be secured as a safe haven for those displaced. And, as Russian troops have retreated from the north, the same applies.

Yes a lot of Ukrainian forces have been focussed on the east throughout, but they have been struggling and now Russia is planning to up their game in the east & south, so there's every reason for Ukrainians to do likewise, otherwise they are going to get fucked.

 

[agricola]

Sorry, but this is bollocks, if some western countries want to send in 'peace keepers' they can define & frame that operation as they wish, they could reinforce the reason for going in by the fact they are protecting international investigators into war crimes, and even invite Russia to send their own investigators to assist in those efforts.

The west of Ukraine has never been under any credible threat by Russian ground forces, so there's no reason why that shouldn't be secured as a safe haven for those displaced. And, as Russian troops have retreated from the north, the same applies.

Yes a lot of Ukrainian forces have been focussed on the east throughout, but they have been struggling and now Russia is planning to up their game in the east & south, so there's every reason for Ukrainians to do likewise, otherwise they are going to get fucked.

I doubt that very much - such is the likely reaction from Russia that the peacekeeping force is going to have to be fully equipped and prepared to have a stand-up fight with them. The logistics alone for it would be a nightmare, to say nothing of what it might do to NATO itself. The Russian forces in the North almost certainly won't all go to Donbas, just the threat of them over the border will be enough to keep Ukrainian forces in the area to protect against them.

As for the last bit - that is a real possibility and if there is any way to avoid that diplomatically now is the time, sickening as it will be.

 

[frogwoman]

 

[maomao]

They should temporarily cede all territory west of the Dnieper to Poland.

 

[moochedit]

Can someone please explain to me what the red line is that has to be crossed before 'the West' just gets in there and stops this?

The "red line" is invading a nato country. They won't "get in there" in Ukraine because it could start ww3 and nuclear war.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I doubt that very much - such is the likely reaction from Russia that the peacekeeping force is going to have to be fully equipped and prepared to have a stand-up fight with them. The logistics alone for it would be a nightmare, to say nothing of what it might do to NATO itself. The Russian forces in the North almost certainly won't all go to Donbas, just the threat of them over the border will be enough to keep Ukrainian forces in the area to protect against them.

As for the last bit - that is a real possibility and if there is any way to avoid that diplomatically now is the time, sickening as it will be.

BIB, exactly, hence why 'peace keepers' sent into the north would free up Ukrainian forces.

Basically, 'Mr Putin we've always said we don't wish to engage with your forces, you have withdrawn from the north, so we are going in to protect the peace & the war crime investigators, we trust you'll not wish to engage with our forces, because we would have to defend our peace-keepers'.

 

[Cid]

BIB, exactly, hence why 'peace keepers' sent into the north would free up Ukrainian forces.

Basically, 'Mr Putin we've always said we don't wish to engage with your forces, you have withdrawn from the north, so we are going in to protect the peace & the war crime investigators, we trust you'll not wish to engage with our forces, because we would have to defend our peace-keepers'.

To which Russia would say 'NATO forces disguised as peacekeepers are operating in Ukraine'.

 

[A380]

Presumably the NATO common defence clause doesn't apply if NATO countries invade other countries (It was invoked following the Iraq or Afgan invasions).

So legally presumably Poland could intervene without it being a NATO intervention. Note, I don't think that:
a. Putin would see the difference and
b, It's s brilliant idea.

Just a thought.

 

[Buddy Bradley]

How did we get from Russian soldiers being innocent young men who didn't even realise they were in Ukraine, to raping and murdering children within the space of 2-3 weeks?

 

[agricola]

BIB, exactly, hence why 'peace keepers' sent into the north would free up Ukrainian forces.

Basically, 'Mr Putin we've always said we don't wish to engage with your forces, you have withdrawn from the north, so we are going in to protect the peace & the war crime investigators, we trust you'll not wish to engage with our forces, because we would have to defend our peace-keepers'.

They’d still have to go in there in considerable numbers though, with everything delivered from hundreds of miles away. It would be an extreme risk that would be run.

 

[Riklet]

IMO despite the awfulness its def not genocide, its crazy how easily that word gets bandied around nowadays.

However, the current war crimes should be food for thought for the current 'pacifist' left that sees both sides as equals/as bad as each other. And just believes in peace negotiations in a vaccuum devoid of current reality. The best way to negotiate with the Russian government is by force - the Ukrainians destroying and killing as much of their army as possible and forcing them out of Ukraine. Sure this is grim, and im sure ill get flack for saying it, but it will save way more lives in the medium and long term.

As for the pro-Putin 'anti imperialist' left there is literally no fucking hope for them. Theyll be busy wanking off to how the dead bodies are paid actors and the rape victims are fluffing their lines for months to come.

 

[elbows]

Sorry, but this is bollocks, if some western countries want to send in 'peace keepers' they can define & frame that operation as they wish, they could reinforce the reason for going in by the fact they are protecting international investigators into war crimes, and even invite Russia to send their own investigators to assist in those efforts.

Its not bollocks, I was careful to say that I'd seen nothing to indicate this prospect was in the offing at this time. My 'never say never' approach is still in effect, although reasons remain not to expect this sort of stuff to happen at this stage of this conflict.

If there are any calculations that such a thing may be desirable and possible and that nations are willing to commit troops to such a cause, there will first be a period where we get to hear all about it, and where the ground is laid for such a thing to happen. Has there really been any of that yet?

Certainly due to the history of peace keeping initiatives, how they are justified and political impetus gained for establishing them, it would be understandable if some people decide to read such possibilities into the current news of war crimes and potential genocide. But in most cases the context for previous peace keeping initiatives has been a fair bit more complicated than that, war crimes alone do not bring such things about. Especially not if the 'horse has already bolted' in terms of the guilty party having left the area, if ethnic tensions within the population arent involved, and if there is no security vacuum in the region in question.

 

[Indeliblelink]

Ukraine Prosecutor General, Iryna Venediktova, posted this on twitter,

Torture chamber was discovered in a children's sanatorium in Bucha by prosecutors and Kyiv Regional police officers. We will establish all the circumstances of war crimes committed by the Russian Federation, the persons involved and bring them to justice.

The pics are too grim to post a direct link.

 

[elbows]

IMO despite the awfulness its def not genocide, its crazy how easily that word gets bandied around nowadays.

Well there is always a continual battle to preserve the meaning of language and concepts, a tendency for things to broaden in a way that weakens the meaning, and effort is required to preserve and reserve meaning.

However, the current war crimes should be food for thought for the current 'pacifist' left that sees both sides as equals/as bad as each other. And just believes in peace negotiations in a vaccuum devoid of current reality. The best way to negotiate with the Russian government is by force - the Ukrainians destroying and killing as much of their army as possible and forcing them out of Ukraine. Sure this is grim, and im sure ill get flack for saying it, but it will save way more lives in the medium and long term.

The parties at war may still engage in such things from a relatively early stage, even if for no reason other than to see what options may become available at some later stage of the conflict, lay some technical groundwork, establish comms channels and the people who are to be involved, and not wanting to be seen to be the ones standing in the way of any potential peace initiatives.

Calculations about medium and long term consequences, especially in terms of future lives lost, do rather tend to evolve. Right now it is easier to take your stance, its if some kind of relative stalemate sets in that minds will more readily turn to how things might be brought to a conclusion via some kind of deal rather than dragging on for a very long time with no end in sight. And it certainly seems to be too soon to make judgements about how that may pan out in future. I have no sense of timescale at all these days, not since Russia so clearly failed with its original plan.

As for the pro-Putin 'anti imperialist' left there is literally no fucking hope for them. Theyll be busy wanking off to how the dead bodies are paid actors and the rape victims are fluffing their lines for months to come.

At least by being so crude and full of overt shit they are easier to spot and dismiss without bothering getting dragged into prolonged arguments with them. Its those who tread a slightly more subtle path that are more tedious and insidious, with some overlap with the 'pacifist' position that you mentioned. I dont miss engaging with such stances, and mostly the only time I get anywhere near that stuff these days is if people go way too far in the other direction, eg by making unsafe claims about how acts and intents 'our side' have shown during other conflicts are incomparable in every possible way.

 

[frogwoman]

This is the guy who wrote that op ed by the way Timofei Sergeitsev / Zinoviev Club

 

[dilute micro]

Grim stuff. Just appallingly grim.




The Ukrainian Ambassador to Lithuania has tweeted pictures that show a family murdered in their home. The pictures include children, one of them, a 3 year old girl, has injuries consistent with Rape.

My littlest one is doing an Easter Egg hunt with Beavers. I'm sat in the car crying.

Could this be a calculated plan by the higher ups to knock back Ukrainian morale? It has an effect on anybody who's only seen the pictures. I've tried to make sense of this all day. It's done on such a scale it has to involve higher level officers.