Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[andysays]

Risible innuendo

Set out your critique with evidence.

You won’t because you haven’t got anything.

A brief search certainly seems to confirm my recollection that you have a significant interest in Chechens and their supposed activities:

Reports that a large column of Chechens are on the way to Kiev:

A few things worth flagging from the following source:

• Chechen kill squad supposedly neutralised
• The reason being that FSB Kiev-sympathetic elements disclosed details of their mission to the Ukrainians(!)
• Does that mean that the Russian state is turning against Putin?

Syrian mercenaries are arriving in Ukraine to fight for the Russians. This is in addition to the Kadyrovite Chechen forces that are already fighting there. Neither are like to be very Islamist (the Chechens may look it but not really), however it is worth pointing out that there are people in the Muslim world who would take the view that the territory of Ukraine (and large parts of Russia, for that matter) is properly Muslim territory. It was occupied for many centuries during the middle ages by the Golden Horde, an Islamic Mongol successor state.

The prompt for this was seeing a snippet of an Iraqi political commentator make pretty much exactly this argument (Ukraine should be part of the Caliphate) on a supposedly popular Iraqi politics show (looked a bit like newsnight).

If this really is a "big" historical event then, like all revolutions, wars etc that are worth their salt, we'll end up in a wildly different place than anyone intended at the outset. In this part of the world, it wouldn't be completely insane if an unexpected outcome might be some kind of religious conflict in the wider Pontic/Black Sea zone.

I wonder whether the Chechens were involved in this. They trade on their brutality.

The Chechens were in the area where they are now finding much of the worst stuff, it now seems.



Plenty of warning signs for this, as that Twitter thread details, but I, for one, took all that stuff - the very worst rumours about the Russians - with a big pinch of salt. Looks like it was on the money now.

 

[Pickman's model]

A brief search certainly seems to confirm my recollection that you have a significant interest in Chechens and their supposed activities:

A prurient interest you might say

 

[Diamond]

The Chechens are one of the main units fighting in this war. In this thread we are discussing said war. Yes, obviously I take an interest in them. That's the point.

 

[Diamond]

But I think you would like to imply something else, would you not?

Trouble is - that's just your prejudice, not mine.

 

[andysays]

A prurient interest you might say

I'm sure there's a perfectly rational explanation...

 

[Diamond]

It's as if you don't know very much about Putin's Russia.

There's a book up the thread that I recommended - educate yourself - plenty on the Chechens in there.

 

[andysays]

The Chechens are one of the main units fighting in this war. In this thread we are discussing said war. Yes, obviously I take an interest in them. That's the point.

I'd be interested to see some attempt to back this up.

Do you have any figures for how what proportion of the invasion forces are Chechens, for example?

 

[Diamond]

In fact, it would probably be fair to say that the Chechens are one of the most influential groups in Russian society today. Weirdly enough.

 

[Cid]

All of them?

 

[Diamond]

I'd be interested to see some attempt to back this up.

Do you have any figures for how what proportion of the invasion forces are Chechens, for example?

Have you not been paying attention?

A whole column of Chechens was wiped out early on in fighting around Bucha/Irpin.

The other area where they are apparently heavily involved is Mariupol.

They are not usually frontline troops - more something like the Cossacks of old (some irony here).

Their fighting style is routinely criticised as being macho and amateurish by Western experts when shown, which is often as they are "stars" for Russian TV. Strangely, they are some of the best equipped of the Russian troops because Kadyrov is so close to Putin.

Look at this from Kaydrov, laying into Putin's press secretary from today:



Does that look to you like a minor player?

The Chechens are absolutely central to Putin's Russia and are a big part of this war - you have to take them into account to get a full picture.

 

[Smangus]

I'm sure there's a perfectly rational explanation...

They're everywhere, best check under yer bed and behind the curtains.

 

[Diamond]

I've even seen some semi-serious speculation that Kadyrov might be a successor to Putin..

 

[Smangus]

I've even seen some semi-serious speculation that Kadyrov might be a successor to Putin..

 

[YouSir]

I've even seen some semi-serious speculation that Kadyrov might be a successor to Putin..

The fuck are you talking about? Who's suggesting that?

 

[frogwoman]

I fully agree that Kadyrov has a very large influence but you probably should refer to him and allies rather than 'the chechens'. Its his private battalion that's fighting in Ukraine, not 'the chechens' as a whole. And ordinary Chechens will be among the first to suffer when shit starts going badly wrong

 

[frogwoman]

The Kadyrov Peskov spat in the news is pretty unbelievable tbh

 

[Yossarian]

According to this report from the early days of the war, while there are definitely Chechens taking part in the conflict - some of them on Ukraine's side - Russian propaganda may have been exaggerating their role.

Thousands of Chechens mobilizing south of Ukraine. Hundreds of Chechen fighters praying in the forest before battle. Dozens of Chechen special forces handed playing cards bearing the names and photos of their intended targets. Ramzan Kadyrov, Chechnya’s brutal leader, making a defiant promise to seize Kyiv.

These are the images being broadcast by Russian propaganda channels, leveraging the very presence of Chechen soldiers in Ukraine as a psychological weapon against Ukrainians.

Moscow’s weaponization of Chechen fighters, trading on stereotypes about the Chechens themselves, is part of its propaganda campaign to attempt to force Kyiv’s surrender—efforts that have, thus far, spectacularly backfired.

Russian state propaganda, and a network of pro-Kremlin Telegram channels that have been used to pump out information warfare mirroring the ongoing assault, has claimed that anywhere between 10,000 and 70,000 Chechen fighters—which Kadyrov has described as “volunteers”—are set to depart for Ukraine to bolster Moscow’s main forces....

....In the weeks before Putin declared war, Kadyrov, a Chechen warlord and close ally of the Russian leader, was one of the most vocal advocates for not only launching a military operation against Kyiv but for annexing the entire country.

The psychological warfare fits neatly into broader Russian efforts to end the invasion of Ukraine before it had even really begun. It doesn’t seem to be working particularly well, however.

Russia Tries to Terrorize Ukraine With Images of Chechen Soldiers

Moscow is exploiting stereotypes of Chechen brutality.

foreignpolicy.com

 

[frogwoman]

It's quite legal in Moscow and happens quite a lot for adverts to rent property to specify 'no chechens/dagestanis" or 'slavs only' which means the same thing in the advert. The Chechens as a people don't have a big influence and are in fact treated like shit outside Chechnya, Kadyrov does along with his cronies because he rules Chechnya with an iron fist and loves Putin so Putin just leaves him to it.

 

[frogwoman]

I've heard that stuff about Kadyrov as a successor to Putin too, I don't think it will happen because the Moscow elite is hugely racist even for someone like Kadyrov but it's not totally outlandish

 

[not-bono-ever]

Dog on a leash. Chechnya would fold without the billions of roubles being handed to el presidente.the state is still fucked and most people are below the poverty line outside new improved grozny.

 

[not-bono-ever]

I've heard that stuff about Kadyrov as a successor to Putin too, I don't think it will happen because the Moscow elite is hugely racist even for someone like Kadyrov but it's not totally outlandish

What happened the last time a caucuses strongman took over…….

 

[YouSir]

It's quite legal in Moscow and happens quite a lot for adverts to rent property to specify 'no chechens/dagestanis" or 'slavs only' which means the same thing in the advert. The Chechens as a people don't have a big influence and are in fact treated like shit outside Chechnya, Kadyrov does along with his cronies because he rules Chechnya with an iron fist and loves Putin so Putin just leaves him to it.

Depressing how one of the first things Western commentators and media did was to mirror that mentality. From day one Chechens were portrayed as some evil other, cruel beyond anything any decent Russian could muster. More or less erased the fact that most Chechens have spent years living under a psychotic scumbag appointed by Putin. Disgusting, really.

 

[YouSir]

I've heard that stuff about Kadyrov as a successor to Putin too, I don't think it will happen because the Moscow elite is hugely racist even for someone like Kadyrov but it's not totally outlandish

Is there any serious voice saying that? That a Chechen Muslim is going to rule the Russian Federation?

 

[not-bono-ever]

Graff found at a soviet base in Jutebog , former DDR - end of service, Not being sent to the looming nightmare of Afghanistan & going home to Dagestan. Kinda unrelated but yeh

 

[frogwoman]

Is there any serious voice saying that? That a Chechen Muslim is going to rule the Russian Federation?

No I dont think he will or that anyone will take over from Vlad any time soon.

but Kadyrov has a lot of friends in very hawkish Moscow political circles and is allying himself with radical Russian nationalists who are on the side of pressing Putin to go even further in Ukraine, basically Dugin type shit way worse (I know it sounds weird) than anything Putin has said so far. He's not really a Muslim, part of why he has some support from these types despite his ethnicity is because of his 'success' in suppressing 'radical Islam' and jihadism in Chechnya, basically through acting brutally on behalf of the Kremlin.

 

[frogwoman]

He's recently been attacking Putins spokesman Dmitry Peskov very publically on social media and on state TV accusing him of not being loyal enough to the boss. If anyone is following this story it is frankly pretty extraordinary and probably needs a thread of it's own at some point

 

[frogwoman]

 

[not-bono-ever]

It's quite legal in Moscow and happens quite a lot for adverts to rent property to specify 'no chechens/dagestanis" or 'slavs only' which means the same thing in the advert. The Chechens as a people don't have a big influence and are in fact treated like shit outside Chechnya, Kadyrov does along with his cronies because he rules Chechnya with an iron fist and loves Putin so Putin just leaves him to it.

Also have the reputation of being violent gangsters in the northern Russia cities

 

[frogwoman]

Also have the reputation of being violent gangsters in the northern Russia cities

Yeah you hear that a lot, its everywhere.

 

[frogwoman]

Sorry. I've been close to tears reading about this shit in Bucha honestly