Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Pickman's model]

i think there is a difference between almost inevitable atrocities carried out in pretty much every war - brutalised troops venting hate/rage/power/revenge on civilians - like mai lai, or the various atrocities carried out in Iraq by coalition troops (or the credible reports of torture of prisoners by Ukrainian troops) - and a deliberate, systematic policy of terror and mass murder planned and organised from above. The former is bad enough - and is usually accompanied by official denial, cover up and little or no interest in prevention or protecting civilians - but the latter is moving into planned genocide territory.

Shock and awe would surely count as a systematic policy of terror and mass murder planned and organised (and of course delivered) from above. Not to mention eg the phoenix program. Or support for the contras etc. The Russian and American ways of war not so very different, tho you suggest they are.

 

[emanymton]

i think there is a difference between almost inevitable atrocities carried out in pretty much every war - brutalised troops venting hate/rage/power/revenge on civilians - like mai lai, or the various atrocities carried out in Iraq by coalition troops (or the credible reports of torture of prisoners by Ukrainian troops) - and a deliberate, systematic policy of terror and mass murder planned and organised from above. The former is bad enough - and is usually accompanied by official denial, cover up and little or no interest in prevention or protecting civilians - but the latter is moving into planned genocide territory.

Yeah you ate probably right.

 

[emanymton]

I kinda felt weird about the tractor and Russian tank memes when all this is going on tbh

Don't know if it will make you feel better about it.

But while I cannot follow most of it in the Ukrainian Telegram chat I'm in the are still sharing memes and, in the last few minutes pictures of cats.

 

[maomao]

I kinda felt weird about the tractor and Russian tank memes when all this is going on tbh

I think feeling joy at the sight of a Russian tabk being towed away by a farmer's tractor is pretty natural. There's a line somewhere between that and getting excited over the bayraktar song that shouldn't be crossed though.

 

[frogwoman]

Yeah, I think it's natural, I just hope the farmer is all right and didn't have some awful revenge taken on him at some point

 

[emanymton]

Don't know if it will make you feel better about it.

But while I cannot follow most of it in the Ukrainian Telegram chat I'm in the are still sharing memes and, in the last few minutes pictures of cats.

Maybe we all need a picture of a Ukrainian cat right now.

According to Google translate the post with the picture said

Here is your morning cat, happy with life

 

[A380]

I kinda felt weird about the tractor and Russian tank memes when all this is going on tbh

It’s laugh sometimes or descend into a dark depression. And people can’t fight that well from dark depression. It doesn’t mean you can’t cry as well.

 

[Diamond]

The Chechens were in the area where they are now finding much of the worst stuff, it now seems.



Plenty of warning signs for this, as that Twitter thread details, but I, for one, took all that stuff - the very worst rumours about the Russians - with a big pinch of salt. Looks like it was on the money now.

 

[dilute micro]

Shock and awe would surely count as a systematic policy of terror and mass murder planned and organised (and of course delivered) from above. Not to mention eg the phoenix program. Or support for the contras etc. The Russian and American ways of war not so very different, tho you suggest they are.

No. You're trying your hardest. Shock and awe was tactical first and bewildering second. It wasn't indiscriminately firing munitions into populated areas with civilian targets and crumbing cities to the ground. And it wasn't mass slaughter of civilians and mass graves. The Iraqis themselves said that they didn't fear the bombings because they were targeted to specific things like communications and anti-air emplacements. Yes, the American and Russian ways of war are very different, note the tools used at the very least. Complain about the money spent and then ignore the reasons why. Russia has a big third world army. At the present, they're wannabes. That may change in 20 to 30 years but right now they're pathetic.

 

[strung out]

Maybe we all need a picture of a Ukrainian cat right now.

According to Google translate the post with the picture said

Here is your morning cat, happy with life

Some more Ukrainian wartime pets for a bit of cleansing.

 

[frogwoman]

 

[zahir]

Some more Ukrainian wartime pets for a bit of cleansing.

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And here: https://twitter.com/UAarmy_animals

 

[teqniq]

The Chechens were in the area where they are now finding much of the worst stuff, it now seems.



Plenty of warning signs for this, as that Twitter thread details, but I, for one, took all that stuff - the very worst rumours about the Russians - with a big pinch of salt. Looks like it was on the money now.

Paywall busted link to WSJ article in the tweet:

Evidence of War Crimes in Ukraine Mounts as Russians Retreat From Kyiv Area

 

[Smangus]

Have to say a lot of very grim stuff going on, but saving the Tapirs did make me smile

 

[not-bono-ever]

I did comment early on in this thread that this could resemble a balkans conflict scenario. Fucks sake

 

[agricola]

No. You're trying your hardest. Shock and awe was tactical first and bewildering second. It wasn't indiscriminately firing munitions into populated areas with civilian targets and crumbing cities to the ground. And it wasn't mass slaughter of civilians and mass graves. The Iraqis themselves said that they didn't fear the bombings because they were targeted to specific things like communications and anti-air emplacements. Yes, the American and Russian ways of war are very different, note the tools used at the very least. Complain about the money spent and then ignore the reasons why. Russia has a big third world army. At the present, they're wannabes. That may change in 20 to 30 years but right now they're pathetic.

I disagree - we might flatter ourselves that the West doesn’t do this, but I think it would be more accurate to say that we try not to do it now unless we think it’s justified.

 

[Kaka Tim]

I did comment early on in this thread that this could resemble a balkans conflict scenario. Fucks sake

yeah - and this sort of shit will inevitably lead to reprisals from the Ukrainians. If not at state directed level - certainly at the level of people taking matters into their own hands.

 

[Artaxerxes]

War crimes have been built into the Russian army since the year dot, there's no need to say oh this is unusual or its the Chechens doing it.


One look at the things it did in Germany in the way to victory and this is exactly the same, not to mention putting down Ukrainian resistance I'm the forties and fifties or what they did in Hungary or Poland.


The army is built on brutality and coercion amongst it's soldiers and that is reflected in the way it treats civilians. The army isn't respected and doesn't respect itself and almost everyone in the upper ranks has been treated like shit on the way up and continues to treat lower ranks like shit. That filters out in its behaviour in the midst of wars.

"Wars happen, I've got a gun, I'm in charge, you die if you resist. Deal with it"

 

[A380]

I disagree - we might flatter ourselves that the West doesn’t do this, but I think it would be more accurate to say that we try not to do it now unless we think it’s justified.

That was one of the reasons for Guantanamo, many other states would have just shot everyone there in the back of the head with their hands cable tied behind their backs once they had finished the interrogation. (Please don't take this as in anyway an expression of my support for Gitmo if you are hard of thinking.)

And while things like Mai Lai happened, and were initially covered up almost everyone in the West will now see people like Hugh Thompson as a hero rather than a traitor.

Kenya was pretty shit in places too.

 

[Ax^]

Some more Ukrainian wartime pets for a bit of cleansing.

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they been rescuing all sorts of animal in ukraine
sure thier was a video of a llama caught wondering around from Kyvie as well

 

[Pickman's model]

No. You're trying your hardest. Shock and awe was tactical first and bewildering second. It wasn't indiscriminately firing munitions into populated areas with civilian targets and crumbing cities to the ground. And it wasn't mass slaughter of civilians and mass graves. The Iraqis themselves said that they didn't fear the bombings because they were targeted to specific things like communications and anti-air emplacements. Yes, the American and Russian ways of war are very different, note the tools used at the very least. Complain about the money spent and then ignore the reasons why. Russia has a big third world army. At the present, they're wannabes. That may change in 20 to 30 years but right now they're pathetic.

How your memory fades, with the tactical maternity hospital bombing drifting away from you Baghdad hospital bombed I don't know which Iraqis provided your comforting assessment or if they even existed. After the precision bombing of an air raid shelter in baghdad in 1991 killing 400 people I don't suppose many Iraqis were as sanguine as you make out . You've forgotten as well the destruction of the electricity and sewage systems in Iraq and other cities, tho I'm sure you'll tell me how tactical those things are. Apparently about 6,200 civilians were killed in the major ops phase of the Iraq war, including the s&a bombardment of Baghdad Shock and awe - Wikipedia.

 

[dilute micro]

I disagree - we might flatter ourselves that the West doesn’t do this, but I think it would be more accurate to say that we try not to do it now unless we think it’s justified.

You're missing the part about intention and at what level it is condoned. Putin sent in riot police along with the army who've said public executions were going to be part of the plan.

 

[DaveCinzano]

I don't suppose many Iraqis were as sanguine as you make out

On the contrary, if there's one thing Iraqi civilians have perfected over the past few decades, it's exsanguination at the hands of others

 

[a_chap]

 

[teqniq]

Just fucking grim:

 

[a_chap]

What can you do? I mean what can you do?

We sit here whilst this shit's going on?

[weeps]

 

[existentialist]

Jack is a Senior Research Fellow at RUSI - knows his onions...



What is the Russian for Einsatzgruppen?

Chekist

ETA: that was meant to be an off-the-cuff, bitterly ironic reply. Having done a little more reading, it's much more appropriate than I intended

 

[Diamond]

I'm quite attracted to the theory that Putin gambled on getting what he wanted without going to war. The West called his bluff and this mess is the result. It's set out well in this article:

 

[tommers]

I'm quite attracted to the theory that Putin gambled on getting what he wanted without going to war. The West called his bluff and this mess is the result. It's set out well in this article:

It's not a bluff if you do it.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm quite attracted to the theory that Putin gambled on getting what he wanted without going to war. The West called his bluff and this mess is the result. It's set out well in this article:

>>Speculation thread