Ukraine and the Russian invasion, 2022-24

[Pickman's model]

I don’t think people need telling which side to have supported in WW2. Most have made their minds up easily enough. There is a suggestion here that everyone must take thoroughly neutral positions on the states involved. I’m simply saying that’s fine in theory but not always possible in practice. Frankly, your supercilious asides in this thread are the bits folk may wish to skip.

You're taking things the wrong way. Maybe it's because you're stupid, maybe it's because you've not thought this thing through, I don't know. Of course everyone here would have wanted to see the defeat of Hitler, Hirohito and Mussolini. But that doesn't mean wanting to see a British ruling class victory or a Soviet victory, which meant the British ruling class and Stalin imposing their will on the world in a way which retarded rather than advanced human liberty. I'd say that British people wanted to see something new and not more of the same auld same auld. And the labour victory in 1945 reflected this.

And contrary to your misrepresentation of his position AmateurAgitator isn't proposing a neutral position on the states involved, he's a thorough-going anarchist and so opposed to states.

 

[tim]

Not Germany, but Dale Vince of Ecotricity made an interesting point about Russian gas in the context of sanctions/calls for boycotts. iirc, I think he said about five per cent of his company's gas supplies were from Russia and he'd looked into breaking the contract but in the end decided not to.

This was because cancelling the contract early would trigger penalty clauses and they'd have to pay the Russian gas company * more * money, not less, so as a means of punishing Russia/Russian companies, it would backfire, because punishing them by cancelling the gas contract would actually result in them being better off financially, not worse off.

Although he said when the contract ended they wouldn't renew/sign up for a new one with Russian suppliers.

So it's not always as simple and effective as you might think, to say boycott/cancel contracts.

Dale Vince OBE, always comes across as a dodgy self-serving shite.

I thought his claim to virtue was that he only sold green electricity, so why is he buying gas from Russia at all?

 

[Dogsauce]

A bit OT but relevant to the general WW3 vibe, the US consulate in Erbil has come under missile attack. Fingers currently pointing at Hezbollah.

Edit to add source:

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Pretty sure most folk in WW2 knew that they would continue to be shat on from above based on how their parents were after WW1. But they chose to fight and die cos they preferred the idea of being shay on by the counts they knew rather than them other cunts. What a fucking choice.

 

[Pickman's model]

Dale Vince OBE, always comes across as a dodgy self-serving shite.

I thought his claim to virtue was that he only sold green electricity, so why is he buying gas from Russia at all?

Bring back dale winton

 

[Pickman's model]

Pretty sure most folk in WW2 knew that they would continue to be shat on from above based on how their parents were after WW1. But they chose to fight and die cos they preferred the idea of being shay on by the counts they knew rather than them other cunts. What a fucking choice.

Yeh. But they had a go at getting new hopefully lesser cunts in. And everyone now remembers Attlee's nationalisations and forgets the Greek civil war, the million dead in the partition of India, and so on.

 

[eoin_k]

A bit OT but relevant to the general WW3 vibe, the US consulate in Erbil has come under missile attack. Fingers currently pointing at Hezbollah.

Edit to add source:

Not sure how off topic it is. Maybe we just need to rename the thread and sub forum to keep up

 

[Raheem]

A bit OT but relevant to the general WW3 vibe, the US consulate in Erbil has come under missile attack. Fingers currently pointing at Hezbollah.

Edit to add source:

Let's wait and see how OT it is. Russia have supposedly been talking to Hezbollah...

 

[Dogsauce]

Not sure how off topic it is. Maybe we just need to rename the thread and sub forum to keep up

Not seeing any mainstream reporting of it so possibly a load of bollocks. Seen claims that it was Iranian missiles, but also drones, and claims of different assailants.

Also suggestions that it’s been timed to fuck up the possibility of a new Iranian nuclear deal, which would bring more Iranian oil onto the market to replace boycotted Russian oil - why there has been some rapprochement in recent weeks.
(So possibly relevant in this sense)

 

[Dogsauce]

Suggestion now is that it is Iranian retaliation for this:

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-700707

No casualties reported, and suggestion that the US consulate wasn’t the only target.

 

[Mr Moose]

You're taking things the wrong way. Maybe it's because you're stupid, maybe it's because you've not thought this thing through, I don't know. Of course everyone here would have wanted to see the defeat of Hitler, Hirohito and Mussolini. But that doesn't mean wanting to see a British ruling class victory or a Soviet victory, which meant the British ruling class and Stalin imposing their will on the world in a way which retarded rather than advanced human liberty. I'd say that British people wanted to see something new and not more of the same auld same auld. And the labour victory in 1945 reflected this.

And contrary to your misrepresentation of his position AmateurAgitator isn't proposing a neutral position on the states involved, he's a thorough-going anarchist and so opposed to states.

Yes, of course, that’s my point. People are sometimes acting as if showing support for Ukraine means supporting imposing that will. I’m glad you’ve finally got it.

 

[Dogsauce]

Suggestion now is that it is Iranian retaliation for this:

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-700707

No casualties reported, and suggestion that the US consulate wasn’t the only target.

Also JPost now running the story so appears legit:

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-701103

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes, of course, that’s my point. People are sometimes acting as if showing support for Ukraine means supporting imposing that will. I’m glad you’ve finally got it.

That's strange because it's not at all what you said in the posts I replied to

 

[tim]

A bit OT but relevant to the general WW3 vibe, the US consulate in Erbil has come under missile attack. Fingers currently pointing at Hezbollah.

Edit to add source:

A lot less World War III vibey than the US bombing of the the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade in 1999. That soon got forgotten about by all concerned.

 

[tim]

Embassies and Consulates are soft targets so I assume that we can expect similar attacks elsewhere on US, Russian, and Ukrainian diplomatic facilities. Carried out by third parties to ensure deniability.

 

[RD2003]

Pretty sure most folk in WW2 knew that they would continue to be shat on from above based on how their parents were after WW1. But they chose to fight and die cos they preferred the idea of being shay on by the counts they knew rather than them other cunts. What a fucking choice.

Ultimately, we're all cannon fodder. The ams dealers get rich though. And, somehow, nothing happens to them.

Fortunes are already being made out of this totally needless war.

 

[RD2003]

Yes, of course, that’s my point. People are sometimes acting as if showing support for Ukraine means supporting imposing that will. I’m glad you’ve finally got it.

'Showing' support means fuck all when you're in little danger of dying yourself.

 

[A380]

What? Have you not noticed that the UK has never won a major war on its tod? You're taking the fucking piss if you think otherwise. But this shit has no place on this important thread.

We won several wars on our own in the scramble for Africa that were fairly major for the people who’s land got painted pink.

The fact that our opponents were armed mostly with fruit is a minor detail.

 

[Serge Forward]

Yes, of course, that’s my point. People are sometimes acting as if showing support for Ukraine means supporting imposing that will. I’m glad you’ve finally got it.

But that wasn't the point you were making in your posts. We can all support those people on the sharp end of things in Ukraine from the Russian military without automatically siding with the Ukrainian state, Ukrainian bosses and Ukrainian nationalism.

 

[Dogsauce]

A lot less World War III vibey than the US bombing of the the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade in 1999. That soon got forgotten about by all concerned.

Suspect some palms were greased to keep things sweet with that one.

Erbil also has a US air base, and apparently attacks are almost routine, so this rocket attack is likely unrelated to Ukraine situation and not especially noteworthy.

 

[redsquirrel]

Whatever the merits, or otherwise, of the popular and/or united front they call for an alliance of forces, not for simply throwing away class politics.
Indeed part of the (however flawed) argument for them is that provide an opportunity to extend the class struggle.

It's peculiar, and pretty ignorant, to use WWII as a supposed example of a war being reduced to a binary dispute between two blocs of states. Not only was there many conflicts between different states/groups, the class struggle was being waged throughout, many people were able to understand that actually they weren't all in it together.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Some different porpoises, earlier.

Why Whales and Dolphins Join the Navy, in Russia and the U.S. (Published 2019)

A former Navy officer who is now a New York Times reporter explains how the American military trains marine mammals for underwater operations.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Mr Moose]

But that wasn't the point you were making in your posts. We can all support those people on the sharp end of things in Ukraine from the Russian military without automatically siding with the Ukrainian state, Ukrainian bosses and Ukrainian nationalism.

Well yes. I totally agree and have never said them opposite.

 

[Indeliblelink]

There's a fundraiser "parade" with DJs [playing various shades of dance music] in central London today if anyone fancies it. I started a thread in the music forum.

Dance For Peace Parade - London 13.03.22 [Ukrainian war victim fundraiser]

Anyone going to the Ukrainian fundraiser in Regent St today? 2pm-7pm Regent Street start with sound systems/floats going to Parliament Sq. Text PEACE to 70560 to donate £10 Kind of tempted but not sure it's outside partying weather and not sure it sits right with me to be having a party while...

www.urban75.net

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

My enemy's enemy may not be my friend, but he may not be my enemy, at least for the time being. There may well be times when you have to make a choice between limited possibilities. It's sometimes a good idea to limit the amount of jargon in your thought processes, as well.

 

[bimble]

A second town’s mayor kidnapped, which looks like the aim remains to install a puppet regime. So popular resistance would need to be crushed completely for the plan to work.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I didn't mean to quote one of KTB's dull posts sorry

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

How could you have not supported the UK during WW2?

I’m going to take a flyer and say that would be a tough sell to the UK working class.

Really easily, Churchill was a pure cunt. I think he said something like fascism was the best way to stamp out Bolshevism or something along those lines one time.

 

[Pickman's model]

Really easily, Churchill was a pure cunt. I think he said something like fascism was the best way to stamp out Bolshevism or something along those lines one time.

Not to mention his role in the bengal famine, and so many other other atrocities.

 

[Spymaster]

I would be supportive of the international working class and oppose the international ruling class ...

Doesn't mean you have to support any ruling class or it's nation-state or capitalist bloc.